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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    If you think about the way the phrase is worded and how it was originally used, it's supposed to evoke this image of some guy mindless parroting the party line even though he neither really understands nor believes in it, typically repeating word for word from a script which is why it is so quickly recognized and dismissed by people who hear it. The reason that this label gets applied so much to discourse about minority rights issues is not because their grievances are entirely illegitimate, as some right wingers would have you believe, but because the conversation is still largely dominated by white people trying to regulate what others should or shouldn't be offended by.

    Being triggered and having emotional breakdowns over perceived slights is, quite frankly, a white people thing. Most minorities are pretty used to hearing racial slurs and experiencing discrimination on a regular basis, and while we obviously don't like being openly disrespected, it's not going to be something that completely sets us off in the same way that white people seem to freak out over just having to share any space with us. And if you listen to how minorities talk about issues that affect them, the tone is usually a lot more intense and far less politically correct than what you'd get from a group of white liberals who have never experienced any of that.
    Interesting analysis. You’ve reminded me of Avengers 1979, in which a white government agent goes to the Avengers and tells them to add a minority member to their group, something which the Falcon, a black hero, isn’t entirely comfortable with.





    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-15-2019 at 10:06 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    For those unaware with the term, political correctness, at least in as so far as I've come to understand it until I find a better definition, means:

    "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

    And based on that, I conclude that political correctness comes from a place of good intent, but what I think is more difficult, especially on a public website on the internet, to discern in regards to a person criticizing political correctness to begin with is what kind of intention said person has. While it's certainly possible to have bad intent when making a criticism (not that specific examples of such cases necessarily need to be emphasized here), I think that it's also possible to have good intent when making a criticism, as I'm sure can be the case for virtually anything that can be inserted into a comic book, including political correctness.

    So, assuming everyone for the time being reading this post has good intent when approaching the topic of political correctness, at least until proven otherwise, and with me being inspired to ask this question based on the discussions of political correctness I've been seeing as of late, I ask all of you here when you've felt political correctness in comics has been done well, because I think it can potentially result in some really interesting discussions.
    Here is a question, what examples of "political correctness" have you noticed and what do you think is wrong with examples?

    Also what is the difference between say political correctness and social commentary? Because social commentary has been part of comics since the 70s.

    Here is my problem, a lot of the people who complain about "political correctness" are these Anti SJW types who just seem to complain, rather put forward an actual creative vision, it seems like they just reproduce what was done in the past, rather then trying to create something new. I would rather see something new rather then just reproducing story beats from the past.

    I myself think creators should be allowed some freedom to experiment and if someone does not like what they are doing, can just not read it.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 09-15-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Here is a question, what examples of "political correctness" have you noticed and what do you think is wrong with examples?

    Also what is the difference between say political correctness and social commentary? Because social commentary has been part of comics since the 70s.

    Here is my problem, a lot of the people who complain about "political correctness" are these Anti SJW types who just seem to complain, rather put forward an actual creative vision, it seems like they just reproduce what was done in the past, rather then trying to create something new. I would rather see something new rather then just reproducing story beats from the past.

    I myself think creators should be allowed some freedom to experiment and if someone does not like what they are doing, can just not read it.
    Actually, it's been there since the beginning. Those early Superman stories from even the late 30's/early 40's dealt with social issues.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Actually, it's been there since the beginning. Those early Superman stories from even the late 30's/early 40's dealt with social issues.
    True, but I think DC backed from that in the 50s and 60s and unless we count the Cold War stuff as social commentary, its was not super prevalent in the Silver Age in Marvel, I would say the 70s is when we see it in full force and has always stayed since then. I think if you take social commentary out comics at this point, they would become more dull, not more exciting, because its good write a story with an actual point to it, rather then just a bunch of explosions. Good art can entertain and inform.

  5. #20
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    When it's not doing the following: championing whatever contemporary political talking points as implicitly equally applicable to everyone, while hypocritically contradicting that by indulging in "sticking it" to some "acceptable target" demographic the creator resents for whatever reason, even sometimes going so far as to try and handwave or justify the exception.
    Last edited by Ragged Maw; 09-15-2019 at 04:07 PM.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    True, but I think DC backed from that in the 50s and 60s and unless we count the Cold War stuff as social commentary, its was not super prevalent in the Silver Age in Marvel, I would say the 70s is when we see it in full force and has always stayed since then. I think if you take social commentary out comics at this point, they would become more dull, not more exciting, because its good write a story with an actual point to it, rather then just a bunch of explosions. Good art can entertain and inform.
    There have always been SJW comics.

    1940's
    William Moulton Marston's Wonder Woman: Just the very premise of it is political, especially then.
    Kirby and Simon's Captain America: I would say, printing an image of Cap punching out Hitler during a time when most American's wanted no part of WW2. is a brazen political statement.

    1950's
    The comics code authority was blanked piece of politicalized censorship plastered over the industry. Everything published under it was political.

    1960's
    Black Panther: Literally everything about his existence was political. it's one thing to have a black superhero in modern times, it's another thing to publish a black superhero at the height of the Civil Rights movement when death threats, were even more serious than they are today.

    Xmen: along the same lines as of Black Panther. Blatant Civil Rights statement.

    1970's
    Dennis O'Neil and artist Neal Adams Green Arrow/Green Lantern. Nakedly political.

    1980's
    One word, Watchman

    1990's
    Xmen: literally did a story about AIDS

    I would ask anyone who is anti-SJW to show me when this apolitical time period in comics was.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 09-15-2019 at 04:25 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    There have always been SJW comics.

    1940's
    William Moulton Marston's Wonder Woman: Just the very premise of it is political, especially then.
    Kirby and Simon's Captain America: I would say, printing an image of Cap punching out Hitler during a time when most American's wanted no part of WW2. is a brazen political statement.

    1950's
    The comics code authority was blanked piece of politicalized censorship plastered over the industry. Everything published under it was political.

    1960's
    Black Panther: Literally everything about his existence was political. it's one thing to have a black superhero in modern times, it's another thing to publish a black superhero at the height of the Civil Rights movement when death threats, were even more serious than they are today.

    Xmen: along the same lines as of Black Panther. Blatant Civil Rights statement.

    1970's
    Dennis O'Neil and artist Neal Adams Green Arrow/Green Lantern. Nakedly political.

    1980's
    One word, Watchman

    1990's
    Xmen: literally did a story about AIDS

    I would ask anyone who is anti-SJW to show me when this apolitical time period in comics was.
    Fair enough, I just it became more prominent in the 70s, but that's not my point, what you just said is my point.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Kirby and Simon's Captain America: I would say, printing an image of Cap punching out Hitler during a time when most American's wanted no part of WW2. is a brazen political statement.
    And in contrast, Cap punching Emperor Hirohito down as a caricature many would surely say is politically *incorrect* nowadays.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-15-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  9. #24
    Surfing With The Alien Spike-X's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say that was politically incorrect. I would say it was grossly, disgustingly racist.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And in contrast, Cap punching Emperor Hirohito down as a caricature many would surely say is politically *incorrect* nowadays.


    Yeah, what is your point? Are you arguing that is good or bad?

    I am not missing characters like the original very stereotypical of ''Whitewash Jones'' and I am kinda glad they repurposed him to be a normal character, rather than a total stereotype:

    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Washi...es_(Earth-616)

    What they did with Jones was a vast improvement.

    This why I am warry of these complaints about political correctness, is ''political incorrect'' storytelling always better? What makes storytelling politically correct or politically incorrect and what makes one better or worse than the other? Personally I think there is some stuff from the past, that is best left in the past.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Yeah, what is your point? Are you arguing that is good or bad?

    I am not missing characters like the original very stereotypical of ''Whitewash Jones'' and I am kinda glad they repurposed him to be a normal character, rather than a total stereotype:

    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Washi...es_(Earth-616)

    What they did with Jones was a vast improvement.

    This why I am warry of these complaints about political correctness, is ''political incorrect'' storytelling always better? What makes storytelling politically correct or politically incorrect and what makes one better or worse than the other? Personally I think there is some stuff from the past, that is best left in the past.
    This isnt exactly a hard question then.

    Is it obviously hideously sexist/racist/homophobic ? Yes ? Then either retcon or update it in some manner to make it not. Because as a buisness, you'll find less of those things sell better despite what some may claim.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Yeah, what is your point? Are you arguing that is good or bad?

    I am not missing characters like the original very stereotypical of ''Whitewash Jones'' and I am kinda glad they repurposed him to be a normal character, rather than a total stereotype:

    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Washi...es_(Earth-616)
    It's obviously bad. I was just adding onto the discussion in regards to how political/social depictions of people were done at that time.

    Speaking of which, it's interesting really. It's like artists like Jack Kirby were drawing racists like Hitler getting punched with one hand, while drawing minstrel-esque stereotypes with the other.



    And more than 20 years later, Kirby would draw the more respectable Gabe Jones and Black Panther, evidently having learned that it's best not to draw black people with stereotypical faces.



    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-16-2019 at 01:49 AM.

  13. #28

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    To answer the OP: imo never that's your answer.
    Political Correctness to me anyway comes across as a tick boxing exercise to seem modern so there is no really reason for it other than its more modern and edgy.
    Not to say all representations match this, Black Panther is an example which doesn't however a prime example would be the MCU Spider and the cast there. I recently read that a large amount of Americans over estimate the amount of population being black (the figure I read was 7% was accurate) and that could be the same for other minorities.
    So the question is why do we have political correctness at all, the answer is because a number of minorities are being ignored or not used however we have to be careful not to overuse them as well. I have four issues with political correctness
    One I find it disgusting when it is done as a publicity stunt or a tick boxing exercise and the SJW scream that they were right, they could always see it and it its brilliant and about dam time - examples I think are true Bobby Drake from X-Men, Alex from Supergirl, and William from Arrow to name a few.
    Two the creative theft afterwards this is more to do with fanfiction than the actual work however the minority in question can't be changed (this applies mostly to religion, politics and sexual orientation) however as soon as it is said it is written in stone and can't be changed however those characters who are white, straight, male, Christian can decided to turn, transition, convert and everything is peachy and then I get lecture about equality.
    Three - the advertising - to me you know its political correctness when they say that this show or this book is going to deal with this instead of the adventures of falcon or black panther or luke cage or storm and they tell you about it almost a year before hand. Example Alex from Supergirl
    Normalizing - This is another word that I despise much like priveilige - it seems that the goal of political correctness is to normalize anything that is a minority but here is the problem they don't tell you what is normal why I have an answer maybe its not the answer but its an answer, it changes for everyone there is no such thing as normal its a pipedream it doesn't exist.

    I think Spike-X comment

    When it pisses off as many whiny, entitled StraightWhiteDudes as possible.
    Not only is it wrong but it is regressive not progressive, representation should be creative and telling a story and let people judge it for what it is, some will like it, some will hate it and some just wont give a ****
    Having a book whose goal is to piss off entitled Straight White Dudes which makes up the majority of the population isn't the greatest business move, I think we need a culture shift fast move away from trying to piss people off to educating those that are prepared to listen so they can educate the next generation.
    Truth is the best policy

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    To answer the OP: imo never that's your answer.
    Political Correctness to me anyway comes across as a tick boxing exercise to seem modern so there is no really reason for it other than its more modern and edgy.
    Not to say all representations match this, Black Panther is an example which doesn't however a prime example would be the MCU Spider and the cast there. I recently read that a large amount of Americans over estimate the amount of population being black (the figure I read was 7% was accurate) and that could be the same for other minorities.
    So the question is why do we have political correctness at all, the answer is because a number of minorities are being ignored or not used however we have to be careful not to overuse them as well. I have four issues with political correctness
    One I find it disgusting when it is done as a publicity stunt or a tick boxing exercise and the SJW scream that they were right, they could always see it and it its brilliant and about dam time - examples I think are true Bobby Drake from X-Men, Alex from Supergirl, and William from Arrow to name a few.
    Two the creative theft afterwards this is more to do with fanfiction than the actual work however the minority in question can't be changed (this applies mostly to religion, politics and sexual orientation) however as soon as it is said it is written in stone and can't be changed however those characters who are white, straight, male, Christian can decided to turn, transition, convert and everything is peachy and then I get lecture about equality.
    Three - the advertising - to me you know its political correctness when they say that this show or this book is going to deal with this instead of the adventures of falcon or black panther or luke cage or storm and they tell you about it almost a year before hand. Example Alex from Supergirl
    Normalizing - This is another word that I despise much like priveilige - it seems that the goal of political correctness is to normalize anything that is a minority but here is the problem they don't tell you what is normal why I have an answer maybe its not the answer but its an answer, it changes for everyone there is no such thing as normal its a pipedream it doesn't exist.

    I think Spike-X comment


    Not only is it wrong but it is regressive not progressive, representation should be creative and telling a story and let people judge it for what it is, some will like it, some will hate it and some just wont give a ****
    Having a book whose goal is to piss off entitled Straight White Dudes which makes up the majority of the population isn't the greatest business move, I think we need a culture shift fast move away from trying to piss people off to educating those that are prepared to listen so they can educate the next generation.
    Whoa, you need to update your statistics. According to the last census, 17% of the population is African-American and 60% white.

    However, as at January this year, 50% of all children in the United States under 15 is a minority. https://www.brookings.edu/research/l...-census-shows/. White people below the age of 15 are already a minority. So the MCU Spider-man movies are quite reflective of what's happening in the US now (i.e assuming the kids in the movies are actually teenagers). While this isn't obviously the case across the United States, it's fast becoming a reality across the country.

    That being said, I actually agree that race-bending some characters isn't the way to go but in accurately the US population going forward, it might actually be necessary. The call for accurate representation isn't just a "sjw" thing, its fast becoming the economic reality that businesses are just waking up too. There's a reason why movies like Black Panther, Crazy Rich Asians and even Wonder Woman (to a lesser extent) cleaned out at the box office.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Political correctness at its heart, is not criticising people for being female/gay/black/short/fat/disabled or whatever. It's a shame that a few people in the 80s took it to the extreme of avoiding ever using words like "black" or "fat", but the intention is good, and the outcome has been broadly good since then. The world is much more tolerant than it was back then.

    It's a shame that some people feel the need to see progress as a bad thing.

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