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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    The responses to Avengers 2 and Black Widows story don't accurately reflect the context of the film, however badly written and are inferring things that are not there by excising words in the responses to create a different implication to what is said.

    Here's the CNN article on the rap concert, performer cited her white grandmother (in fairness to me, I heard about this some time ago) https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...OZzVCEumy&cf=1
    I remember some people being upset that BW referred to herself as a monster because she couldn't have kids. If the Nat/Bruce thing was better written, I might have had an issue with it, but it was so bad that I was way more upset at how crappy that whole sub-plot was.

    On the Detroit Concert thing, the promoters did something clearly racist and were rightly called out about it. Good! The only thing is, seems to me these folks weren't interested in balancing any scales, they were just trying to scam money from gullible people. Notice, their "reversal" was to not lower prices for white people, but to raise them for black and brown fans!

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    The difference here is that Falcon wanted to feel he earned the position on the avengers. This is different from normal jobs where a black man has earned the position but still wouldn't of got it if not for affirmative action. The avengers issues in the panels shown were more of that they didn't know Falcon and thus didn't know if he was going to be able to handle the kinds of threats they go up against. Not what his skin color was. It's an important difference IMO.
    Plus Sam's didn't even have any interest in joining the team, and saw he clearly was being used a political tool. I think in a previous panel he said something like, "Did anyone think to ask if I even wanted to be an Avenger?"

  3. #48
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    Ok, so in regards to the David Micheline Affirmation Action story, David never actually got to do it (supposedly, it was going to deal with tension with in the group and with the govt and how they overcome it all). After introducing this story thread, other people wrote the next several issues and didn't focus on the Falcon much. By the time he returned, David felt it didn't make sense to do his original story anymore. Unfortunately, if you're Falcon fan you're going to be disappointed by many of those issues. Sam contributes very little other than moping in the background about being the token.

    Avengers #200 gives story credit to a handful of people. Basically a different story was written but EiC Shooter killed it at the last minute because he thought the plot was too similar to a What If story they'd just published. Popular consensus though is that Shooter and Micheline get the bulk of the credit (blame) with a few other people suggest random ideas.

    The Busiek Affirmative Action story is notable for bring up the subject in a well rounded way, and not ending on a kumbaya moment. Several characters debate the "representation" issue and when Triathlon shows up Iron Man doesn't want him because of his connection to a shady religion. The NSA agent says something like, "Oh it's not ok to discriminate against his race but it's ok when it's religion?" All this plays out later in interesting ways that sacrifice neither the seriousness of the issues brought up nor the superheroics.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    So, my question to you, if you feel like you've got an answer for this, is when does the hiring for skin color to safeguard against potential prejudice end? Or would it be more preferable, instead of working with the assumption employers are going to be default racist, to instead have proactive policies in place for when it's been proven?
    I think part of the issue with some jobs is the reason for a lack of POC applying is because when those POC were kids-those jobs were never SHOWN to them.
    How can I get a black girl interested in STEM when NONE of the programs are in her school district?

    My school district has a minority & women program where ANY bids to buy property or get services MUST include bids from them. That does not mean we go with them by default but to make sure they have a chance to bid.


    Part of the issue that the anti-SJW and "color over character" folks FAIL to get is once upon a time-POC were left out of stuff.
    For whatever reason racist or not.
    Just because you saw a McDuffie or Priest does not mean all was well.
    A LOT of stuff they did is NOT in trade. Priest did Conan for 3 years. NONE of those issues are in trade. Same with the Ray & Justice League Task Force.


    I found the CNN article on the rap concert with a quick google search of those keywords. Once I've read it I'll post the link.
    I got another one for you. Wal-Mart.com look up Barbie Fashionista doll 130. It's a DARK skinned black male. Why is he CHEAPER than all the others? In fact he's cheaper than ANY of the 5 previous lines.
    This is NOT the first time I have seen this-White Christmas Holidays Barbie was sold at a HIGHER price than her black version.
    Wonder Woman movie toys went CLEARANCE at Target after one week and folks BOUGHT her toys. Aquaman did not hit clearance and are collecting dust.
    Before Black Panther movie toys-if you wanted BLACK action figures (not counting WWE) you could NOT get them in black neighborhoods from some reason. That is why you see black figures from most line at BLOOD MONEY prices on Ebay. Trying getting Marvel Rising Patriot.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    True, but I think DC backed from that in the 50s and 60s and unless we count the Cold War stuff as social commentary, its was not super prevalent in the Silver Age in Marvel, I would say the 70s is when we see it in full force and has always stayed since then. I think if you take social commentary out comics at this point, they would become more dull, not more exciting, because its good write a story with an actual point to it, rather then just a bunch of explosions. Good art can entertain and inform.
    It has always been there.

    The pushback we are seeing now is folks taking issue with WHO is perceived to be doing it.
    A lot of it being lead by those who DON'T read the books but let hearsay tell them how to think.
    And they LOVED to cherry pick.

    See Ms Marvel. It's how dare you show Muslims as HUMANS or forcing her religion on folks. Even an issue where she encourage folks to VOTE was deemed OFFENSIVE.
    Champions #25 was suppose to be this ANTI gun book that was going to upset the NRA. Didn't happen. I would say Batman Seduction of the Gun from the 90s should have done that.


    Normalizing - This is another word that I despise much like priveilige - it seems that the goal of political correctness is to normalize anything that is a minority but here is the problem they don't tell you what is normal why I have an answer maybe its not the answer but its an answer, it changes for everyone there is no such thing as normal its a pipedream it doesn't exist.
    I think folks are TIRED of the default. We can see a VARIETY of white folks get introduced. Yet it's a battle to do the same for POC.

    What do you notice about Static.
    When he FIRST appeared-he made ALL his stuff and trained himself. He had BOTH parents. His sidekick was a white Jewish girl (who became his wife).
    Static Shock cartoon
    One parent (FORCED on McDuffie by the network). No female sidekick (despite Fillmore airing) and GEARS made all his stuff.
    New 52 Static
    Hardware gave him all his stuff and "trained" him.
    Young Justice Static
    Needed to be trained by Black Lightning.
    Peter Parker had no one to help him. Yet Static needs someone.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Avengers #200 gives story credit to a handful of people. Basically a different story was written but EiC Shooter killed it at the last minute because he thought the plot was too similar to a What If story they'd just published. Popular consensus though is that Shooter and Micheline get the bulk of the credit (blame) with a few other people suggest random ideas.
    I imagine some people are against writing rape into comics to begin with, but then again, seeing as how other writers such as Alan Moore included rape in Watchmen, which is a series that seems widely praised to this day as far as I'm concerned. I suppose it's mainly a matter of writing it in a responsible manner, which includes having it be explicitly acknowledged as bad, something which Avengers #200, original intention or not, doesn't really seem to do likely due to the writers mismanaging random ideas.

    In any event, it's quite a contrast from next year's series of issues regarding Ant-Man hot-headedly slapping the Wasp, which was a situation that I think was treated with more responsibility and seriousness, both in the issue the incident happens in and the aftermath. I also suspect Marvel felt that they needed to "make-up" for Avengers #200 by doing things like having the Wasp be the leader and having more women on the team than men.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-17-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Hmm..I think I have a slightly different interpretation of Black Panther's speech. But even I conceded the point, I don't see how it would be considered "politically incorrect" today. What person do you think would say that it's "reinforcing whiteness?"

    There was a debate both ways over the Tim Seely thing. Tim himself said he thought about it and maybe a black woman writer could bring something to Blade's daughter that he couldn't. He quit. Marvel didn't fire him over the controversy. The project languished because Marvel wanted to do a Tim Seely project, Tim Seely left, so that was the end of the project.
    For the Panther story, in a world where the context of Natasha taking her first life is ignored in favor of hearing sterile and monster in the same sentence and seeing red or Seeleys ethnicity being a point of contention at all, let's say you have a storyline where T'Challa tells Red Skull he'd been thinking about race a lot like him lately, then uses cultures from Red Skulls blood to cure a "sickness" in minorities. Then "sells out" his peoples tech to Tony Stark.
    For the "whiteness" being used as a derogatory term, I've had a lot of conversations here over the last 5 years, there's one in particular where that came up (and conversations like that aren't exactly exclusive to this site)
    Yeah, someone who wants to be selective and racialize points could have a field day with that story if it dropped tomorrow. The more extreme reactionaries to start with, then the ones who just go along with it, then the people who defenf the assessment dogmatically if the "wrong sort" disagrees. It's a simple formula but quite repetitive.

    On the Seeley agreeing eventually with being chased from the project due to his ethnicity, what I'll say is abused spouses go back to their wife beating husbands. I still hate the wifebeaters even if I think the spouse made a horrid decision by giving in and capitulating to those demands, which I don't think would be having this great defense if it were, let's say, Christopher Priest being denied a Captain America series again due to his skin color, which to my understanding isn't all that removed from reality.

    Here's the takeaway for me, the conversation could've been Tim Seeleys creating a new black character, great, we'd like a black creator to create a black character too. Can Fallon Grey have a brother? Maybe (throws dart at board) Geoffrey Thorne and Dwayne Turner can create this badass, let's call him Woodbine. Then there can be a crossover down the way. Kinda like how Kyle and Yost created X-23, Daniel Way created Daken and then they crossed over during Marjorie Liu's tenure on the X-23 book.
    Or just take it to a place of you existing with your skin color creating a black character is standing in our way somehow, not in Fabian Nicoeza's way with Night Thrasher or Darryl Banks with Fatality orpick an example, but it's nebulously in our way so this character gets to not exist in the name of representation (I had heard comic commentator Caped Joel address this briefly earlier this year and mention many had buycotters remorse realizing that it just subtracted a black character and didn't get anyone work)
    Last edited by Conch22; 09-17-2019 at 12:11 AM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I remember some people being upset that BW referred to herself as a monster because she couldn't have kids. If the Nat/Bruce thing was better written, I might have had an issue with it, but it was so bad that I was way more upset at how crappy that whole sub-plot was.

    On the Detroit Concert thing, the promoters did something clearly racist and were rightly called out about it. Good! The only thing is, seems to me these folks weren't interested in balancing any scales, they were just trying to scam money from gullible people. Notice, their "reversal" was to not lower prices for white people, but to raise them for black and brown fans!
    That feels like a No True Scotsman and given how they continued to justify the initial decision and just said they changed it from online Klan threats (which maybe they got, maybe this is like Kevin Spacey coming out as gay after sexual assault of a minor allegations surface). That to me makes them seem pretty dyed in the wool with that mindset, I'm not gonna contest they're noticeably immoral as that was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I think part of the issue with some jobs is the reason for a lack of POC applying is because when those POC were kids-those jobs were never SHOWN to them.
    How can I get a black girl interested in STEM when NONE of the programs are in her school district?

    My school district has a minority & women program where ANY bids to buy property or get services MUST include bids from them. That does not mean we go with them by default but to make sure they have a chance to bid.


    Part of the issue that the anti-SJW and "color over character" folks FAIL to get is once upon a time-POC were left out of stuff.
    For whatever reason racist or not.
    Just because you saw a McDuffie or Priest does not mean all was well.
    A LOT of stuff they did is NOT in trade. Priest did Conan for 3 years. NONE of those issues are in trade. Same with the Ray & Justice League Task Force.




    I got another one for you. Wal-Mart.com look up Barbie Fashionista doll 130. It's a DARK skinned black male. Why is he CHEAPER than all the others? In fact he's cheaper than ANY of the 5 previous lines.
    This is NOT the first time I have seen this-White Christmas Holidays Barbie was sold at a HIGHER price than her black version.
    Wonder Woman movie toys went CLEARANCE at Target after one week and folks BOUGHT her toys. Aquaman did not hit clearance and are collecting dust.
    Before Black Panther movie toys-if you wanted BLACK action figures (not counting WWE) you could NOT get them in black neighborhoods from some reason. That is why you see black figures from most line at BLOOD MONEY prices on Ebay. Trying getting Marvel Rising Patriot.
    I think it's better to have smarter policies is what I'm generally getting at. I'll put it this way. My best friend is a black dude who used to beg for change and dress shabby when. He comes from a way wealthier family than mine. The money that he cleaned up from people in the rich end of town went to weed and booze. The people taking pity got a morality trip in helping the less fortunate, he's spending less of his own money. He's also a very charismatic person with a good work ethic that tends to get promoted at whatever job he's working. He doesn't need a program just because black. If there's to be programs ro address everything you said, with the metric it's thought out well and not just a rushed social bandaid, then totally respect these issues getting addressed and rectified.
    Was mainly contextualizing my point earlier, I have great respect for the issues you brought up

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    MCU Spider-Man is growing up in Queens New York The U.S. Census Bureau reports that the population of Queens is 50% white, 28% Hispanic, 24% Asian, 21% black, and 3% mixed race. Almost half (48%) of Queens residents are foreign born, and 56% speak a language other than English at home. Some of the largest ethnic groups are Chinese (9%), West Indian (7%), Italian (7%), Indian (5%), and Irish (5%). The fact that the cast was so diverse was not ticking boxes but getting the demographics right.
    I'm sorry but to me it was a box ticking exercise
    Do we have a Asian kid - nope well lets change Ned Leeds from a reporter Peter hardly knows to his best friend
    Do we have a black girl - lets use the Speculator Spider-man version of Liz Allan
    Do we have a lantino - no so lets change Flash Thompson to Latino while also making sure that he isnt a Jerk Jock
    Do we have a girl of mixed race - no so lets have a character be MJ in everything but name and make her biracial

    The whole point is does Peter need a Asian Nerdy best friend - no he really shouldnt but they gave him one - Why when it goes againist the character.

    Peter is smart did we see it in Homecoming - not really from what i remember.

    Is there still Jerk Jocks in our schools - Yes why can't Flash be one - Why was the story changed

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I think folks are TIRED of the default. We can see a VARIETY of white folks get introduced. Yet it's a battle to do the same for POC.
    Some folks may be but i'm tired of everything being about appeasing one group or another i find it insulting - write good strong characters and let them stand on their own
    If they are written well then people who are interested will buy them, i buy Ms Marvel trades because the character to me is written well and i'm interested in her journey.
    The fact that she is a muslim and i can learn a little about the religion is a bonus

    What do you notice about Static.
    Truthfully not a lot i havent read that many static shock comics are they good.

    When he FIRST appeared-he made ALL his stuff and trained himself. He had BOTH parents. His sidekick was a white Jewish girl (who became his wife).
    Sounds interesting maybe i should see if i can get trades when i'm buying next

    Static Shock cartoon
    One parent (FORCED on McDuffie by the network). No female sidekick (despite Fillmore airing) and GEARS made all his stuff.
    Ok Network interfence no one likes it but this proves my point why was Gears introduced and Why was Static/Virgil dumbed down it sucks

    New 52 Static
    Hardware gave him all his stuff and "trained" him.
    Who the **** is Hardware, i'm sorry what kind of super hero codename is Hardware

    Young Justice Static
    Needed to be trained by Black Lightning.
    Peter Parker had no one to help him. Yet Static needs someone.
    Except in the MCU when he needed Tony Stark, Ned, Nick Fury, or freaking Mysterio to help him
    Both characters have versions that go againist the character however Virgil seems to get the short end of the stick but another example
    Would you say that T'Challa in the MCU deserves a place in the top ten smartes men in the Marvel Univerise - nope because his sister is the smartest person
    T'Challa in the comics is one of the 8th Smartest men on the planet. Why was all this changed
    Tick Box excerise.
    Truth is the best policy

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I imagine some people are against writing rape into comics to begin with, but then again, seeing as how other writers such as Alan Moore included rape in Watchmen, which is a series that seems widely praised to this day as far as I'm concerned. I suppose it's mainly a matter of writing it in a responsible manner, which includes having it be explicitly acknowledged as bad, something which Avengers #200, original intention or not, doesn't really seem to do likely due to the writers mismanaging random ideas.

    In any event, it's quite a contrast from next year's series of issues regarding Ant-Man hot-headedly slapping the Wasp, which was a situation that I think was treated with more responsibility and seriousness, both in the issue the incident happens in and the aftermath. I also suspect Marvel felt that they needed to "make-up" for Avengers #200 by doing things like having the Wasp be the leader and having more women on the team than men.

    The problem with Avengers #200 wasn't that Carol Danvers was raped, it's that the narrative didn't present it as rape. It made it look like a happy ending.

    I don't think that things like the Wasp becoming leader were to "make up" for what Carol Danvers, there were just an outgrowth of storylines already in play and a reflection of what was going on in society in the early 80's ( changing roles for women etc).

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    For the Panther story, in a world where the context of Natasha taking her first life is ignored in favor of hearing sterile and monster in the same sentence and seeing red or Seeleys ethnicity being a point of contention at all, let's say you have a storyline where T'Challa tells Red Skull he'd been thinking about race a lot like him lately, then uses cultures from Red Skulls blood to cure a "sickness" in minorities. Then "sells out" his peoples tech to Tony Stark.
    For the "whiteness" being used as a derogatory term, I've had a lot of conversations here over the last 5 years, there's one in particular where that came up (and conversations like that aren't exactly exclusive to this site)
    Yeah, someone who wants to be selective and racialize points could have a field day with that story if it dropped tomorrow. The more extreme reactionaries to start with, then the ones who just go along with it, then the people who defenf the assessment dogmatically if the "wrong sort" disagrees. It's a simple formula but quite repetitive.

    On the Seeley agreeing eventually with being chased from the project due to his ethnicity, what I'll say is abused spouses go back to their wife beating husbands. I still hate the wifebeaters even if I think the spouse made a horrid decision by giving in and capitulating to those demands, which I don't think would be having this great defense if it were, let's say, Christopher Priest being denied a Captain America series again due to his skin color, which to my understanding isn't all that removed from reality.

    Here's the takeaway for me, the conversation could've been Tim Seeleys creating a new black character, great, we'd like a black creator to create a black character too. Can Fallon Grey have a brother? Maybe (throws dart at board) Geoffrey Thorne and Dwayne Turner can create this badass, let's call him Woodbine. Then there can be a crossover down the way. Kinda like how Kyle and Yost created X-23, Daniel Way created Daken and then they crossed over during Marjorie Liu's tenure on the X-23 book.
    Or just take it to a place of you existing with your skin color creating a black character is standing in our way somehow, not in Fabian Nicoeza's way with Night Thrasher or Darryl Banks with Fatality orpick an example, but it's nebulously in our way so this character gets to not exist in the name of representation (I had heard comic commentator Caped Joel address this briefly earlier this year and mention many had buycotters remorse realizing that it just subtracted a black character and didn't get anyone work)
    Black Panther: You're saying, "What if someone wrote a story like this, I can see extremists taking it wrong." OK, Maybe. I mean, right now we have some people watching The Last Jedi and instead of criticizing characters or lore, claiming it promotes White Genocide. But the actual Avengers Red Zone story is easily accessible and no one is re-reading and calling it politically incorrect.

    If you think Tim Seeley shouldn't have given in to angry people on the internet, I think that's valid argument. But comparing him to a battered spouse makes no sense whatsoever. And again, saying what other people could have created is a separate point. There are more minority characters being created right now by both black and white creators. They're being published by folks other than Marvel so they get less attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    That feels like a No True Scotsman and given how they continued to justify the initial decision and just said they changed it from online Klan threats (which maybe they got, maybe this is like Kevin Spacey coming out as gay after sexual assault of a minor allegations surface). That to me makes them seem pretty dyed in the wool with that mindset, I'm not gonna contest they're noticeably immoral as that was my point.


    I think it's better to have smarter policies is what I'm generally getting at. I'll put it this way. My best friend is a black dude who used to beg for change and dress shabby when. He comes from a way wealthier family than mine. The money that he cleaned up from people in the rich end of town went to weed and booze. The people taking pity got a morality trip in helping the less fortunate, he's spending less of his own money. He's also a very charismatic person with a good work ethic that tends to get promoted at whatever job he's working. He doesn't need a program just because black. If there's to be programs ro address everything you said, with the metric it's thought out well and not just a rushed social bandaid, then totally respect these issues getting addressed and rectified.
    Was mainly contextualizing my point earlier, I have great respect for the issues you brought up
    I just thought it didn't seem to me that this was a case of someone with good intentions going to far. It was a case of someone with bad intentions using a good cause to scam people. Notice at no point did they suggest that they'd be using any of concert money to help people in the community.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    I don't take the good intentions excuse as a real excuse. Everyone who ends up on a bad path outside of your garden variety serial killers, has good intentions. Communists had good intentions. Well, all these people starved to death, but they had good intentions. The Nazi party thought they were doing what was best for Germany. Even the Rwandan genocide, they didn't call them people, they called them cockroaches, which they intended to and nearly succeeded in exterminating. The race they thought they were doing it on behalf of, they thought they were doing a good thing for them. So, saying good intentions doesn't address the reality of how ideas get implemented and becomes a meaningless pleasantry to distract from when things go wrong.

    Those are extreme examples to illustrate the point, so let's have some real examples of political correctness going wrong then, right? There was a rap concert, in Detroit if I remember right, this was earlier this year. They decided to charge black people more than white people to attend. Wait, I messed the people targeted up. They decided to charge white people more than black people for tickets. Out of a sense of politically correct balancing of the scales culturally. Then they had a rapper drop out as he didn't think it was right they'd charge his white mom more than his black dad. That's poison and it seems to be the trend with political correctness this decade. Something screwed up happened in the past so something equally screwed up has to happen to balance it out. The DoublePlusGood style newspeak also isn't foreboding in the least.

    Keeping this centered on comics, remember when Black Panther broke Red Skulls jaw and stated how he'd been viewing race the way the Red Skull does and he was going to seek to be a better man that didn't make those insane judgements based on race? That would be seen as politically incorrect today, the authors skin color would be a talking point, color blindness would be seen as "reinforcing whiteness" or some other implication that's clearly bigoted in how it uses skin color as a defacto negative.

    It's not particularly difficult to recognize the patterns. Okay, this group of assorted people believe in political correctness, they're gonna clearly misread Black Widows arc in Avengers 2 to give it the most negative connotation imaginable. Or stop Tim Seeley from creating Blades daughter due to skin color.

    Gotta jam in some points here because this site keeps losing half my posts. Let's be fair, if there's specific actions from this decade, like getting Dwayne McDuffie a star on the Hollywood walk of Fame or fixing the screwed up situation where Marvel will pigeonhole Christopher Priest as the "black writer" let's hear it. Lets hear the specific good that's come out of this, credit where it's due. Not some vague there's good intentions, society's "better" and that's all down to us
    None of that goes against anything I said. Just because people sometimes do stupid or downright wrong things in the name of political correctness doesn't mean political correctness is wrong. It just means that sometimes people get it wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    I'm sorry but to me it was a box ticking exercise
    Do we have a Asian kid - nope well lets change Ned Leeds from a reporter Peter hardly knows to his best friend
    The character is clearly Miles Morales's best friend Ganke from Ultimate Spider-Man. God knows why they changed his name.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    The whole point is does Peter need a Asian Nerdy best friend - no he really shouldnt but they gave him one - Why when it goes againist the character.
    It doesn't go against the character. And why not. Clearly putting Ned in as Peter's best friend was a storytelling choice. Making him Asian might have been a PC choice, but having him there at all is nothing to do with political correct

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Peter is smart did we see it in Homecoming - not really from what i remember.
    Also nothing to do with political correctness.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Is there still Jerk Jocks in our schools - Yes why can't Flash be one - Why was the story changed
    and again nothing to do with political correctness. You seem to be jumping on every change they made and trying to shoehorn it into being about political correctness.

    Where has JJJ's flat-top gone? Political correctness gone mad!

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Ok, so in regards to the David Micheline Affirmation Action story, David never actually got to do it (supposedly, it was going to deal with tension with in the group and with the govt and how they overcome it all). After introducing this story thread, other people wrote the next several issues and didn't focus on the Falcon much. By the time he returned, David felt it didn't make sense to do his original story anymore. Unfortunately, if you're Falcon fan you're going to be disappointed by many of those issues. Sam contributes very little other than moping in the background about being the token.

    Avengers #200 gives story credit to a handful of people. Basically a different story was written but EiC Shooter killed it at the last minute because he thought the plot was too similar to a What If story they'd just published. Popular consensus though is that Shooter and Micheline get the bulk of the credit (blame) with a few other people suggest random ideas.

    The Busiek Affirmative Action story is notable for bring up the subject in a well rounded way, and not ending on a kumbaya moment. Several characters debate the "representation" issue and when Triathlon shows up Iron Man doesn't want him because of his connection to a shady religion. The NSA agent says something like, "Oh it's not ok to discriminate against his race but it's ok when it's religion?" All this plays out later in interesting ways that sacrifice neither the seriousness of the issues brought up nor the superheroics.
    That's really cool, much better than anything I could have brought up. What kind of resources are there out there for good behind the scenes info? I never can find anything.

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