Page 5 of 15 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 221
  1. #61
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    15,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    The problem with Avengers #200 wasn't that Carol Danvers was raped, it's that the narrative didn't present it as rape. It made it look like a happy ending.

    I don't think that things like the Wasp becoming leader were to "make up" for what Carol Danvers, there were just an outgrowth of storylines already in play and a reflection of what was going on in society in the early 80's ( changing roles for women etc).
    Edit:I should have mentioned that Avengers Annual #10 was a direct response to Avengers #200. Written by Chris Claremont he had Carol tell off the team at the end of that story and moved her over to the X-men title where she was their human freind. Eventually Chris gave her a make over as Binary.

  2. #62
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Black Panther: You're saying, "What if someone wrote a story like this, I can see extremists taking it wrong." OK, Maybe. I mean, right now we have some people watching The Last Jedi and instead of criticizing characters or lore, claiming it promotes White Genocide. But the actual Avengers Red Zone story is easily accessible and no one is re-reading and calling it politically incorrect.

    If you think Tim Seeley shouldn't have given in to angry people on the internet, I think that's valid argument. But comparing him to a battered spouse makes no sense whatsoever. And again, saying what other people could have created is a separate point. There are more minority characters being created right now by both black and white creators. They're being published by folks other than Marvel so they get less attention.
    My point on the battered spouse analogy was that someone who's a victim making a bad decision doesn't make the perpetrators any less on the wrong for the initial incident. What other people could have created isn't a separate point, it's the point of instead of saying "can we have someone also do this" of which I cited a canon example in Marvel of characters following that way without fans even pushing for it to my knowledge (Kyle and Yost on X-23 to Daken by Daniel Way) we got the straight you must be denied this. Instead we got a creator being told not to create a character based on the creators skin color. As this is about political correctness, why can't you just say, full stop, telling someone they can't create something because of their skin color is wrong? I'd think that be the easiest thing to be on board with regarding political correctness.

    On the Panther story, I made a joke about with a friend elsewhere about how Grant Morrisons New X-Men finale is problematic because (Magneto revealed to have been in elaborate yellowface for 3 years, Jean mindwarping Scott into staying with his mistress being kinda rapey and messed up that she's playing matchmaker for her cheating husband and his side piece). Someone here, like 6 months later, mentioned how problematic that run is. I was reading a blog awhile back with a listing of characters, someone being very progressive minded was saying how much they hate the Marvel character Rage because he's a black man named Rage (should've just called him black Rage, was one of the things said there).
    You can think it's unlikely, at this point I'm ready to put a moratorium on the Panther issue as I feel I've made a good case for why sliding it forward 15 years as a new story would freak out some people, particularly if you took the Panther saying he'd been thinking like a Nazi issue and released it as brand new in let's say February of 2018. I can see where there would be modern controversy. Not following that Star Wars drama, sounds really dumb. Don't particularly care about the new films, Rogue One being an exception as I quite liked it

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    15,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    That's really cool, much better than anything I could have brought up. What kind of resources are there out there for good behind the scenes info? I never can find anything.
    Believe it or not, Micheline addressed the Falcon situation right in the letters page of the Avengers comic. Other stuff I remember from old interviews and articles. There's random articles from things like Comics Journal, Comics Alliance and even Jim Shooter's old blog floating around out there. Which reminds me, in one he claims that Hank Pym slapping Jan was the result of the artist misinterpeting Jim's plot outline. But makes me wonder if that was the case, why didn't he have the editor or someone correct it?

  4. #64
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    None of that goes against anything I said. Just because people sometimes do stupid or downright wrong things in the name of political correctness doesn't mean political correctness is wrong. It just means that sometimes people get it wrong.
    My point was intentions are meaningless with poor actions married to them, which seems to be a trend when it comes to PC, increasingly so. I see it as a pattern, people declare themselves the moral authority through their good intentions and something that could be a helpful suggestion becomes a trial in the court of public opinion over something insane like Halloween costumes.
    I see clear patterns on how and why it's going wrong, not a bunch of isolated incidents of "oh, that person got it wrong too, complete coincidence". It's not coincidental that people keep getting it wrong. There's fundamental shifts from previous ideals of PC, from striving for equal treatment to making excuses for people not being treated equally due to immutable physical characteristics like skin color. It's, in practice, not the simple be nice to people concept and bogged down with a lot of toxic, reductionist dogma, from where I'm sitting. Looking for a common thread where this keeps going wrong might be worthwhile if you care about the ideas social traction is what I'll say to finish my point.

    This previous question hasn't been answered, so I'll restate it, positive things that have been done on people's behalf in the name of PC, examples of PC lifting people up instead of tearing them down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    Let's be fair, if there's specific actions from this decade, like getting Dwayne McDuffie a star on the Hollywood walk of Fame or fixing the screwed up situation where Marvel will pigeonhole Christopher Priest as the "black writer" let's hear it. Lets hear the specific good that's come out of this, credit where it's due. Not some vague there's good intentions, society's "better" and that's all down to us
    Last edited by Conch22; 09-17-2019 at 07:19 AM.

  5. #65
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Remember when political correctness had a longer name ? It was called "Not being assholes to each other"
    Yup. IMO, it's generally a good thing in comics or anywhere else.
    f/k/a The Black Guardian
    COEXIST | NOEXIST
    ShadowcatMagikДаякѕтая Sto☈mDustMercury MonetRachelSage
    MagnetoNightcrawlerColossusRockslideBeastXavier

  6. #66
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    The problem with Avengers #200 wasn't that Carol Danvers was raped, it's that the narrative didn't present it as rape. It made it look like a happy ending.
    Indeed. That's what I was getting at. It probably didn't help matters either how, to my understanding, what constituted as rape was different in 1980 than how we constitute it today, not helped by the irresponsibility in managing editing the characterizations properly, even if under strict deadlines. That's not to excuse the irresponsibility, but to help explain it, and if Claremont had been involved and included the sort of writing like how he did for The Avengers Annual #10, then I think the general reaction would have turned out quite differently. It would have made for better, more responsibly handled writing that would have seemed less like character assassinations and more like a way for people to learn from their mistakes and grow as human beings in the wake of tragedies such as the one Carol went through.





    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-17-2019 at 11:23 PM.

  7. #67

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    The character is clearly Miles Morales's best friend Ganke from Ultimate Spider-Man. God knows why they changed his name.
    Because they know that if they included Ganke without Miles the Internet would explode but they still wanted to include a nerdy Asian kid for Peter to be friends with.


    It doesn't go against the character.
    I'm sorry in what version of any adaption of spider-man has he ever needed a "MAN IN THE CHAIR", answer never did he positively effect Peter possibly did it also negatively impact him yes.
    Why because Ned was the one that was working on Karen while Peter whine and bitched, the guy is smart enough to create his own gadgets hence why people didnt like it and thought he was Iron Man lite.


    And why not.
    This is the reply i also get when i question something, i find it rude and insulting answering a question with a question.


    Clearly putting Ned in as Peter's best friend was a storytelling choice.
    Good or bad depends on your point of view.

    Making him Asian might have been a PC choice,
    I differently think it was a PC choice


    but having him there at all is nothing to do with political correct
    I never said having Peter have a friend is PC, not required in my opinion but not PC notice the question was does he need a Asian Nerdy best friend but i change it does peter need a nerdy best friend i dont think so
    especially since he is meant to be a nerd who is friendless till College


    Also nothing to do with political correctness.
    This is more him saying i think peter was dumb down in homecoming they recovered in Far from Home.


    and again nothing to do with political correctness. You seem to be jumping on every change they made and trying to shoehorn it into being about political correctness.
    Actually it could because they don't want to show a latino pick on and bully a white kid because that would send the wrong message to the lantion crowd so they change Flash to be a academic rival

    We seem to be living in a age where people look to be insulted wither Flash is a latino or not to me he still should be a jerk jock who grows to be a solider and a great guy.
    Truth is the best policy

  8. #68
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    993

    Default

    I've heard the reason Ned Leads resembles Ganke, Peters girlfriend was invented for the film, etc, etc, is a business maneuver by Disney to make those versions specific to the MCU so if the Sony deal fell through they just can't take those characters established in the MCU with them as they're legally distinctive. Bear in mind I heard this in a Midnights Edge video covering the topic and I'm not overly familiar with them so can't vouch for how accurate they tend to be

  9. #69
    Surfing With The Alien Spike-X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,404

    Default

    MCU Flash Thompson was South Asian (Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan), not Hispanic, you moron.

  10. #70
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    15,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    My point on the battered spouse analogy was that someone who's a victim making a bad decision doesn't make the perpetrators any less on the wrong for the initial incident. What other people could have created isn't a separate point, it's the point of instead of saying "can we have someone also do this" of which I cited a canon example in Marvel of characters following that way without fans even pushing for it to my knowledge (Kyle and Yost on X-23 to Daken by Daniel Way) we got the straight you must be denied this. Instead we got a creator being told not to create a character based on the creators skin color. As this is about political correctness, why can't you just say, full stop, telling someone they can't create something because of their skin color is wrong? I'd think that be the easiest thing to be on board with regarding political correctness.

    On the Panther story, I made a joke about with a friend elsewhere about how Grant Morrisons New X-Men finale is problematic because (Magneto revealed to have been in elaborate yellowface for 3 years, Jean mindwarping Scott into staying with his mistress being kinda rapey and messed up that she's playing matchmaker for her cheating husband and his side piece). Someone here, like 6 months later, mentioned how problematic that run is. I was reading a blog awhile back with a listing of characters, someone being very progressive minded was saying how much they hate the Marvel character Rage because he's a black man named Rage (should've just called him black Rage, was one of the things said there).
    You can think it's unlikely, at this point I'm ready to put a moratorium on the Panther issue as I feel I've made a good case for why sliding it forward 15 years as a new story would freak out some people, particularly if you took the Panther saying he'd been thinking like a Nazi issue and released it as brand new in let's say February of 2018. I can see where there would be modern controversy. Not following that Star Wars drama, sounds really dumb. Don't particularly care about the new films, Rogue One being an exception as I quite liked it
    Tim is the person who made the decision to quit. I can't pretend to read his mind. Maybe he read something that convinced him someone else could write about a black girl better than him, or maybe he thought the debate was stupid but didn't want to die on that hill at this point in his career, but it was his decision. Again Marvel didn't fire him because of the angry mob. By saying they could have kept Blade's daughter and had a someone else create another character ignores that Marvel was only interested in Blade's daughter if Tim was writing it. They were interested in Seeley's name not the character they "denied" us. They gave us other women and minority character during and since. Some were interesting and some weren't. If there's a loss, it's that Tim signed exclusively to DC so if you want to see him write specifically Marvel characters, that probably won't happen until his contract is up.

    It's not hard to say that telling someone that they can't create something because of their skin color is wrong but that's not what most people who want more representation on the page and behind the scenes believe. And it's certainly not what Marvel/DC has been practicing.

    Sure, you can find so-called "SJWs" saying either extreme or just plain dumb things, but that's some thing that cuts across all kinds of agendas. The "angry mob" syndrome is hardly something the "PC Brigade" has a monopoly on that's why I brought up The Last Jedi. Someone watched the new Star Wars movies and decided that they were somehow anti-white male propaganda. You have angry mobs calling for the firing of Mark Waid or whomever they baited on twitter this week. You have people stabbing and burning "SJW" comics. You have people making hundreds of videos pretending to be mad about the "politics" of the Capt Marvel movie before they'd even seen it. I'd say outrage culture in general is the real problem. You can gain not just social capital from being angry actual capital capital.

    I'll agree to disagree on Black Panther in Red Zone. I mean, it's not an obscure comic, modern fans are familiar with it and I've yet see anyone suggest that it's problematic.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    You have angry mobs calling for the firing of Mark Waid or whomever they baited on twitter this week.
    Ah, that was him getting flak for his writing on IGNITED, wasn't it? I recall there was something about his original essay for Marvel Comics #1000 as well.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-17-2019 at 06:37 PM.

  12. #72
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,556

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Conch22 View Post
    I've heard the reason Ned Leads resembles Ganke, Peters girlfriend was invented for the film, etc, etc, is a business maneuver by Disney to make those versions specific to the MCU so if the Sony deal fell through they just can't take those characters established in the MCU with them as they're legally distinctive. Bear in mind I heard this in a Midnights Edge video covering the topic and I'm not overly familiar with them so can't vouch for how accurate they tend to be
    I do not trust Midnight's Edge, he promotes the same theory in his Star Trek videos, he just applies to everything he does not like.

  13. #73
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    That's really cool, much better than anything I could have brought up. What kind of resources are there out there for good behind the scenes info? I never can find anything.
    There's Jim Shooter's website, where he gave an explanation in regards to Hank's slap for example.

    "In that story (issue 213, I think), there is a scene in which Hank is supposed to have accidentally struck Jan while throwing his hands up in despair and frustration—making a sort of “get away from me” gesture while not looking at her. Bob Hall, who had been taught by John Buscema to always go for the most extreme action, turned that into a right cross! There was no time to have it redrawn, which, to this day has caused the tragic story of Hank Pym to be known as the “wife-beater” story." - http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-p...e-beater.html/

  14. #74
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Tim is the person who made the decision to quit. I can't pretend to read his mind. Maybe he read something that convinced him someone else could write about a black girl better than him, or maybe he thought the debate was stupid but didn't want to die on that hill at this point in his career, but it was his decision. Again Marvel didn't fire him because of the angry mob. By saying they could have kept Blade's daughter and had a someone else create another character ignores that Marvel was only interested in Blade's daughter if Tim was writing it. They were interested in Seeley's name not the character they "denied" us. They gave us other women and minority character during and since. Some were interesting and some weren't. If there's a loss, it's that Tim signed exclusively to DC so if you want to see him write specifically Marvel characters, that probably won't happen until his contract is up.

    It's not hard to say that telling someone that they can't create something because of their skin color is wrong but that's not what most people who want more representation on the page and behind the scenes believe. And it's certainly not what Marvel/DC has been practicing.

    Sure, you can find so-called "SJWs" saying either extreme or just plain dumb things, but that's some thing that cuts across all kinds of agendas. The "angry mob" syndrome is hardly something the "PC Brigade" has a monopoly on that's why I brought up The Last Jedi. Someone watched the new Star Wars movies and decided that they were somehow anti-white male propaganda. You have angry mobs calling for the firing of Mark Waid or whomever they baited on twitter this week. You have people stabbing and burning "SJW" comics. You have people making hundreds of videos pretending to be mad about the "politics" of the Capt Marvel movie before they'd even seen it. I'd say outrage culture in general is the real problem. You can gain not just social capital from being angry actual capital capital.

    I'll agree to disagree on Black Panther in Red Zone. I mean, it's not an obscure comic, modern fans are familiar with it and I've yet see anyone suggest that it's problematic.
    So, if a black creator is getting told by a mob of angry fans they can't write a white character because skin color, and this creator happens to quit the book and says they think a white writer might be a better fit, you won't connect those dots as to why a writer that was ready to write a book quit or take exception to those fans?
    I would and I think that just may be where we differ

  15. #75
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    I do not trust Midnight's Edge, he promotes the same theory in his Star Trek videos, he just applies to everything he does not like.
    Good to know, seems a reasonable theory for the differences but didn't wanna say I knew if the source wasn't solid. Thanks for the info

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •