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  1. #16

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    To clarify: I dont think Shuri would be incapable of eventually figuring out time travel. The point I'm disagreeing with was the earlier claim that she is flat out /more/ intelligent than Stark. Which based on feats just doesn't stack up.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
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    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

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  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    She also was able to unlock Vision from the mind stone, right?

    Also, the what-if-Stark-but-in-Wakanda question feels like a weird reach for Stark and a downplay of Shuri. Stark is a main character who's had... seven movies in which he's played either the main role or one of the main roles. Shuri has been a supporting character in one (technically two I suppose) films. It's natural that Stark has done more stuff.

    Saying that Stark would do better if he'd had her upbringing or background feels hollow to me.

    The terms of thread is whether it's possible. If Tony is presented as smart enough to figure out time travel, I have no issue with Shuri likewise figuring it out. In terms of feats, Stark has obviously done more and better things but in terms of presentation I don't think Shuri is incapable of solving time travel.
    As I've clarified, I am fine with saying Shuri could eventually figure it out. I was simply contending the "she's smarter" claim.

    Also, just to be clear, I think Shuri is a fantastic character. I very much enjoyed her roles so far in the MCU.

    I am curious though why you feel her unfettered access to super sci fi metals and a greater baseline tech wouldnt be huge boons for Stark if he were to have had them?
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    To clarify: I dont think Shuri would be incapable of eventually figuring out time travel. The point I'm disagreeing with was the earlier claim that she is flat out /more/ intelligent than Stark. Which based on feats just doesn't stack up.
    That would be another thread topic: If Shuri and Tony's places were switched, could Tony remove the Mind Gem from Vision?

    I'm a little bummed that we didn't get to see them meet. Shuri's intelligent, yes, and I'd like to think that she met with Tony in order to teach him about nano-tech. But what one does with that becomes a different story.

    I view Shuri in the same point as Rocket -- Rocket may know more about alien engineering than Tony ("You're only a genius on *this* world"), but Rocket couldn't have built or conceive of that time machine, either. Shuri can create a near perfect holographic interface for a car half a world away, which is incredibly impressive, but Tony would've put armor and offensive/defensive gadgets on that car, too. Foresight is a component of intelligence.

    And Shuri could become smarter than Tony, but I'm going to chalk that up to age and inexperience. I'm cool with giving her time, as she's a very fun character (and imo, more fun than Tony).

  4. #19
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    That would be another thread topic: If Shuri and Tony's places were switched, could Tony remove the Mind Gem from Vision?

    I'm a little bummed that we didn't get to see them meet. Shuri's intelligent, yes, and I'd like to think that she met with Tony in order to teach him about nano-tech. But what one does with that becomes a different story.

    I view Shuri in the same point as Rocket -- Rocket may know more about alien engineering than Tony ("You're only a genius on *this* world"), but Rocket couldn't have built or conceive of that time machine, either. Shuri can create a near perfect holographic interface for a car half a world away, which is incredibly impressive, but Tony would've put armor and offensive/defensive gadgets on that car, too. Foresight is a component of intelligence.

    And Shuri could become smarter than Tony, but I'm going to chalk that up to age and inexperience. I'm cool with giving her time, as she's a very fun character (and imo, more fun than Tony).
    Pretty easy to be more fun than a dead guy

    But yea, Shuri is an awesome character, looking forward to seeing how she develops in the MCU.
    "... and when the Golden Toad started to sing, there was no turning back." - grampagen (Ochazuke)

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  5. #20
    Writer and editor KJS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    1) Janet had no time issues in the Quantum Realm as she aged normally, and it required leaving the quantum realm to learn. Since Hank knew barely anything about it I don't see them just randomly discovering it's possible
    Janet is, quite literally, the person who brought up the concept of time vortexes first in the MCU.

    She also came out with an intimate knowledge of Quantum energy - to the point that she knew how to heal Ava Starr, without there being any feasible reason for her to know that. She just knew. Because 30 years in the Quantum Realm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    2) Strange only saw 1 future in all the ones he checked which required the people who survived to survive, and I'm fairly certain that such an indiscriminate random killer like the Snap wouldn't kill the same people every time.
    But this, in itself, is an event that happens in a different MCU timeline to the one we saw. This isn't what happened in the movies, so it's not part of the same timeline we've seen in the movies. Ergo, Strange probably saw different outcomes in this timeline. He saw 14,000,605 in the original timeline, but that's not EVERY outcome he could possibly have seen.

    In this timeline, he wouldn't have seen the timeline in which Tony Stark carried out the snap and stopped at that one, because Tony Stark wasn't destined to survive the snap here.

    Strange would have looked into the future, seen a completely different set of outcomes, and stopped at one in which this set of survivors pull out a win.

    It makes no sense at all for things to happen the way they did - Strange handing over the Time Stone so the time heist can happen - if it doesn't actually end up happening.

    We literally can't have got to a point in which the snap happened without Strange having the situation in hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    3) As Watcher said it's kinda academic at this point since Thanos is dead, but assuming he remained I don't see how they could come to the Time Heist again. Their best bet would be to track down Thanos before he snapped the stones away.
    I've already explained this.

    Shuri + Wakanda's geniuses could potentially have pulled it off.

    With Shuri and Wanda left alive, Vision would likely be brought back to life without the Mind Stone. Given that he was specifically created using elements of Stark and Banner's minds - two people who mastered time travel tech - there's no reason he couldn't have used the knowledge he inherited from them to assist in mastering time travel.

    Strange would still be alive. He has a library of unused spells to tap into - some of which could potentially involve time shenanigans.

    Fury would still be alive. He seemed to have a plan for everything. Perhaps he could have pulled something out of his ass to help - even if it was just to give a fancy piece of tech to someone a lot cleverer than he is.

    Selvig would still be alive. Selvig was able to create a portal to the other end of space back in 2012. With the further knowledge he'd have accumulated working with the Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D., adding his mind to that of Shuri's Strange's magic is a potent combination.

  6. #21
    Writer and editor KJS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    To clarify: I dont think Shuri would be incapable of eventually figuring out time travel. The point I'm disagreeing with was the earlier claim that she is flat out /more/ intelligent than Stark. Which based on feats just doesn't stack up.
    I didn't claim it, I said that it had been stated. Hence the word "apparently".

    As in the Russo Brothers have "confirmed" she's the smartest person in the MCU. "Canonically", in their words.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    I didn't claim it, I said that it had been stated. Hence the word "apparently".

    As in the Russo Brothers have "confirmed" she's the smartest person in the MCU. "Canonically", in their words.
    What did I say about asking those guys questions!? :P

    Well. Huh. Still, based on Rumbles standards, Stark should take the blue ribbon.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  8. #23
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    I didn't claim it, I said that it had been stated. Hence the word "apparently".

    As in the Russo Brothers have "confirmed" she's the smartest person in the MCU. "Canonically", in their words.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    What did I say about asking those guys questions!? :P

    Well. Huh. Still, based on Rumbles standards, Stark should take the blue ribbon.
    Someone misheard the interview.

    Interviewer: “Is Tony Stark the smartest character in the MCU?”
    Russos: “Sure he is.”

    So many people misunderstood.

  9. #24
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    They did eventually walk back that comment and say they simply had different specialties.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Pretty easy to be more fun than a dead guy

    But yea, Shuri is an awesome character, looking forward to seeing how she develops in the MCU.
    She can be the LIFE of the party. Eh? EH?!

    [/Fozzie]

  11. #26
    Fantastic Member Tomzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    That is simply bonkers that they said that. Somebody needs to stop asking them questions.

    The dude didn't make himself exempt!? Really??? That makes NO sense. If he had dusted himself, he couldn't have done part 2 of his plan of destroying the stones. They would just be sitting there waiting for a suicidal tough guy to undo the damage.

    I just can't accept that he would have risked all that.
    I'm not so sure if this will assuage you in any way, but I highly recommend you read Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: Thanos Titan Consumed. Thanos has a death wish, so the Russo brothers might not be far off.
    Click here to watch: GODZILLA vs. LEGION
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  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    But yea, Shuri is an awesome character, looking forward to seeing how she develops in the MCU.
    I personally thought she's kinda Mary Sue.

  13. #28
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    I dunno. She talks like a Mary Sue, but she hasn't actually succeeded at all that much. She never actually managed to free Vision from the gem, for example. Her completely silent sneakers weren't actually silent. It would be different if she were kicking all sorts of ass and pulling focus away from T'Challa, but in practice she's just been a mouthy version of Q. Which, come to think of it, is just plain Q, since Q has always been mouthy. So no, I wouldn't say she's a Mary Sue.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 09-17-2019 at 01:38 AM.

  14. #29
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    Janet is, quite literally, the person who brought up the concept of time vortexes first in the MCU.

    She also came out with an intimate knowledge of Quantum energy - to the point that she knew how to heal Ava Starr, without there being any feasible reason for her to know that. She just knew. Because 30 years in the Quantum Realm.



    But this, in itself, is an event that happens in a different MCU timeline to the one we saw. This isn't what happened in the movies, so it's not part of the same timeline we've seen in the movies. Ergo, Strange probably saw different outcomes in this timeline. He saw 14,000,605 in the original timeline, but that's not EVERY outcome he could possibly have seen.

    In this timeline, he wouldn't have seen the timeline in which Tony Stark carried out the snap and stopped at that one, because Tony Stark wasn't destined to survive the snap here.

    Strange would have looked into the future, seen a completely different set of outcomes, and stopped at one in which this set of survivors pull out a win.

    It makes no sense at all for things to happen the way they did - Strange handing over the Time Stone so the time heist can happen - if it doesn't actually end up happening.

    We literally can't have got to a point in which the snap happened without Strange having the situation in hand.



    I've already explained this.

    Shuri + Wakanda's geniuses could potentially have pulled it off.

    With Shuri and Wanda left alive, Vision would likely be brought back to life without the Mind Stone. Given that he was specifically created using elements of Stark and Banner's minds - two people who mastered time travel tech - there's no reason he couldn't have used the knowledge he inherited from them to assist in mastering time travel.

    Strange would still be alive. He has a library of unused spells to tap into - some of which could potentially involve time shenanigans.

    Fury would still be alive. He seemed to have a plan for everything. Perhaps he could have pulled something out of his ass to help - even if it was just to give a fancy piece of tech to someone a lot cleverer than he is.

    Selvig would still be alive. Selvig was able to create a portal to the other end of space back in 2012. With the further knowledge he'd have accumulated working with the Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D., adding his mind to that of Shuri's Strange's magic is a potent combination.
    1) Janet healed Ghost the same way she healed Hank the same way she adapted/evolved to live in the Quantum Realm without phasing and going mad, she doesn't have some magical knowledge of how to time travel via Pym particle or else she wouldn't have warned Scott to stay away from said vortexes as they explicitly couldn't save him. I just watched the scene in question, and knowing time and space work funny when you're shrunk that small doesn't give her the ability to time travel or the idea to use it to travel in time like skipping 5 years with Scott did.

    2) If Strange had learned any spells regarding time they'd have involved the Time Stone since they've had said stone for generations, and as his vision of the future only worked if he told no-one (Unchanged from Movie) he can't inspire Time Travel directly either. As I've said, their best bet is tracking down Thanos before he snaps away the stones if they've the might to take them with who they have left. BTW given that Steven is still human and can be wrong or interfere/fail to interfere in a way that results in everything going pear shaped, simply seeing 1 chance in over 14 million doesn't ensure it will happen.

    3) However smart they are, if they don't get the inspiration to use Pym particles for time travel there's no Time Heist and I still don't see how.

  15. #30
    Voice of the Authorities Cleric of Hellís Brigade's Avatar
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    Besides, Hank Pym wins as smartest.

    He essentially invented a cure to world hunger, storage concerns, garbage shrinkage, shipping, et...


    The practical applications of Pym particles is staggering. He made magic essentially.
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