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  1. #61
    Writer and editor KJS's Avatar
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    Regarding Shuri, she created all the modern Black Panther costumes (nanotech, kinetic energy redirection etc), all the hand-held energy weapons and projectiles in Wakanda, the massive dome energy shield around Wakanda, the sneakers, the holographic communicators in Wakanda, the atmospheric sensors orbiting Earth that warn Wakanda of incoming threats, the magnetic levitation train in Wakanda's vibranium mines, the tech that allows cars/jets/other vehicles to be controlled remotely.... she's basically created better tech than Stark ever did before he mastered time travel. And she totally undermined both Stark and Banner with superior knowledge of Vision/the Mind Stone.

    And she's still a teenager. Given time, there's absolutely no reason to believe she couldn't master time travel - her knowledge basis was far better than Stark's was when he mastered it.

  2. #62

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    Two things.

    1: I feel like the "Strange knew it was ok" point is fine on a logical level, but sort of goes against the spirit of the thread? I took the thread as a theoretical topsy turvy sort of deal where all members were thrown for a loop and had to see if they could overcome. Otherwise we can just say "Strange still gave the Stone therefore duh" and be done with it. Again... that makes fine sense in the grand scheme but I doubt it was what the OP intended. Am I making sense?

    2: Vision has no feats of super genius. Nor does his on screen personality particularly resemble either of those two. Handwaving him to super genius standards feels wrong and ignores Rumbles Standards of evidence.
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 09-18-2019 at 09:30 AM.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    Regarding Shuri, she created all the modern Black Panther costumes (nanotech, kinetic energy redirection etc), all the hand-held energy weapons and projectiles in Wakanda, the massive dome energy shield around Wakanda, the sneakers, the holographic communicators in Wakanda, the atmospheric sensors orbiting Earth that warn Wakanda of incoming threats, the magnetic levitation train in Wakanda's vibranium mines, the tech that allows cars/jets/other vehicles to be controlled remotely.... she's basically created better tech than Stark ever did before he mastered time travel. And she totally undermined both Stark and Banner with superior knowledge of Vision/the Mind Stone.

    And she's still a teenager. Given time, there's absolutely no reason to believe she couldn't master time travel - her knowledge basis was far better than Stark's was when he mastered it.
    When did it show her to be responsible for creating the shield, train/mine system and orbital grid? She inherited the lab and just only recently iirc. So not everything is her invention was my understanding.

    Do you have a video link or some such?
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  4. #64
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    I think one of the beats feats for Shuri is that she got to look at Vision and the Mind Stone for about half an hour and immediately came up with a way to fix the problem, when one of the guys who invented and Vision was stumped. She also looked at him and pretty much immediatley thought of a better way they could have achieved their end result (creating vision).

  5. #65
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJS View Post
    That's a fun way of saying "I am wilfully ignorning the fact she literally brought up time vortexes and you just reminded me about it."

    If Scott was snapped away, seconds after Janet warned him about going into a time vortex, do you not think her initial thought might be "oh no, he must have gone into a time vortex"!?

    Upon ultimately realising that he'd actually been snapped away, in the ONE successful timeline Doctor Strange MUST have seen to have given Thanos the Time Stone, maybe, just maybe, Janet would think "hey, you know, we could actually use those time vortexes to traverse time".

    Whether or not she'd be capable of doing/implementing the idea isn't the point, but with Hank Pym present, you don't think he might just say "what did you say about time vortexes?" and then come up with a plan, in conjunction with the other heroes/geniuses in the MCU?
    Considering as part of the same conversation she warned about the Tardigrade fields and knows there are many more ways the Quantum Realm can be deadly, No that's not the instant go-to assumption.

    This is, of course, making the wild assumption that Strange had actually learned EVERY spell that ever existed. Which he hadn't.

    In this scenario, he might (read "WOULD") make it his goal to discover time travel spells that hadn't yet been utilised.

    As I've already said, in this scenario, the snap happened, so Strange must have voluntarily handed the Time Stone to Thanos. That's MCU canon. An undeniable fact.

    For Strange to have done that, he HAS TO have seen a future in which the heroes win. That's literally the reason he gave it away. Ergo, the future in which he saw the heroes win literally MUST happen.

    But, as I've now stated more than once, this is the future in which they do get that inspiration. It might only be 1 in several million again, but it's the 1 in which that happens.
    Seeing the future before it happens isn't a guarantee it will happen or that you'll win, and you've been on Rumbles long enough to know this (Jedi don't win every Rumble, etc). Saying otherwise is willfully ignoring the standards of evidence and debate here. You are also assuming Time Travel Spells exist in the MCU without any sort of evidence for it as well. Especially when he could much more easily try and track down Thanos like everyone else was canonically in the movie. Also Canonical to the movie and this scenario: Strange not hinting to anyone what will happen or it won't.

    Again, Vision has elements of Stark and Banner's mind in his. He could be brought back to life and come up with the idea. It was specifically stated that he could survive without the Mind Stone. With Shuri's knowledge and Wanda's love for him very much in tact in this timeline, he WOULD be resurrected. No reason whatsoever why he wouldn't use the knowledge he inherited from two men who mastered time travel to create or inspire it himself.
    As the Arbiter said:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Two things.

    1: I feel like the "Strange knew it was ok" point is fine on a logical level, but sort of goes against the spirit of the thread? I took the thread as a theoretical topsy turvy sort of deal where all members were thrown for a loop and had to see if they could overcome. Otherwise we can just say "Strange still gave the Stone therfore duh" and be do e with it. Again... that makes fine sense in the grand schemes but I doubt it was what the OP intended. Am I making sense?

    2: Vision has no feats of super genius. Nor does his on screen personality particularly resemble either of those two. Handwaving him to super genius standards feels wrong and ignores Rumbles Standards of evidence.

  6. #66
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    1: I feel like the "Strange knew it was ok" point is fine on a logical level, but sort of goes against the spirit of the thread? I took the thread as a theoretical topsy turvy sort of deal where all members were thrown for a loop and had to see if they could overcome. Otherwise we can just say "Strange still gave the Stone therfore duh" and be do e with it. Again... that makes fine sense in the grand schemes but I doubt it was what the OP intended. Am I making sense?
    I don't think so, because the key fact here is that Strange is still around to see his vision through now. Presumably, there are points of possible divergence after what happens on Titan that could have fouled things up and so everything was still very much up in the air. In THIS case though, Strange unsnapped is really the significant part, because it means he can actually do things to try and make whatever possible victory scenario he sees come to pass. I think it's at least possible that the characters in question could figure out time travel, so Strange can be actively trying to make whatever needs to happen for them to figure it out, happen. It's one thing if they would have to just guess the time travel thing on their own, but it's another if someone who looked at every possibility is standing right there to say "okay in this one marginally possible timeline you figured out time travel. Here are the pieces of information I could understand from what I saw."

    Alternately, Strange sees NO future scenario where they win, so he tries to pull off something on Titan because he might as well, which gets you a PIS-less Titan fight.

    Edit: On the other hand, if we assume Strange, for some reason, still saw the canon timeline, then while he might have no idea why nothing is the same as what he saw, he HAS seen how they do time travel, and again, can relay whatever information he understands from that to Shuri or whoever. Basically Strange being around smooths out a lot of details, because he can just tell people things.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 09-18-2019 at 11:43 AM.
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  7. #67
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    I don't think so, because the key fact here is that Strange is still around to see his vision through now. Presumably, there are points of possible divergence after what happens on Titan that could have fouled things up and so everything was still very much up in the air. In THIS case though, Strange unsnapped is really the significant part, because it means he can actually do things to try and make whatever possible victory scenario he sees come to pass. I think it's at least possible that the characters in question could figure out time travel, so Strange can be actively trying to make whatever needs to happen for them to figure it out, happen. It's one thing if they would have to just guess the time travel thing on their own, but it's another if someone who looked at every possibility is standing right there to say "okay in this one marginally possible timeline you figured out time travel. Here are the pieces of information I could understand from what I saw."

    Alternately, Strange sees NO future scenario where they win, so he tries to pull off something on Titan because he might as well, which gets you a PIS-less Titan fight.

    Edit: On the other hand, if we assume Strange, for some reason, still saw the canon timeline, then while he might have no idea why nothing is the same as what he saw, he HAS seen how they do time travel, and again, can relay whatever information he understands from that to Shuri or whoever. Basically Strange being around smooths out a lot of details, because he can just tell people things.
    As far as I see it whatever he foresees is still constrained by his statement that he can't reveal anything about it.

  8. #68
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    As far as I see it whatever he foresees is still constrained by his statement that he can't reveal anything about it.
    The Titan battle plan was based around his future vision. Is there some reason he shouldn't be able to do the same thing in this case? At the very least, he's proven that he can tell someone he saw a possible victory scenario. The rest is just suggesting they maybe look into certain things, or trying to line up events so that they do it on their own. Either way, it cuts way down on the improbabilities involved by having someone who knows the future around trying to make that future come to pass.
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  9. #69
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    The Titan battle plan was based around his future vision. Is there some reason he shouldn't be able to do the same thing in this case? At the very least, he's proven that he can tell someone he saw a possible victory scenario. The rest is just suggesting they maybe look into certain things, or trying to line up events so that they do it on their own. Either way, it cuts way down on the improbabilities involved by having someone who knows the future around trying to make that future come to pass.
    I don't disagree that it would be in his character to be tempted to if not outright interfere, but that risks invalidating the future he foresaw if he doesn't do it just right. This being a scenario and not a comic/movie means that victory isn't assured even if it is possible, since the good guys don't always win.

  10. #70
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    I don't disagree that it would be in his character to be tempted to if not outright interfere, but that risks invalidating the future he foresaw if he doesn't do it just right. This being a scenario and not a comic/movie means that victory isn't assured even if it is possible, since the good guys don't always win.
    Like everything he did on Titan is literally interfering, so I don't really see the problem? He was interfering the second he told Tony he saw the future.
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  11. #71
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Like on one hand, it's being argued that no one else is likely to figure out time travel, but now you're saying Dr. Strange won't lift one finger to try and make that happen despite the fact that he definitely enters the scenario knowing it can be done, because doing so might make it not happen?
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  12. #72
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Like everything he did on Titan is literally interfering, so I don't really see the problem? He was interfering the second he told Tony he saw the future.
    If he saw himself doing that, then he was simply fulfilling what he saw. For the purposes of this scenario everything about what he saw is a complete guess. If he saw the original then he not only knows where Thanos is now and when he'll snap away the stones and that future is screwed already and he's free to do whatever. If he saw the new timeline, then it's a complete guess as to what he saw and what he can do freely when constrained by his earlier statement.

  13. #73
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalak View Post
    If he saw himself doing that, then he was simply fulfilling what he saw. For the purposes of this scenario everything about what he saw is a complete guess. If he saw the original then he not only knows where Thanos is now and when he'll snap away the stones and that future is screwed already and he's free to do whatever. If he saw the new timeline, then it's a complete guess as to what he saw and what he can do freely when constrained by his earlier statement.
    He viewed millions of possibilities. The snap is explicitly described as a matter of chance, meaning he almost definitely saw possibilities involving different sets of survivors and was possibly doing some RNG manipulation on Titan (that's a joke, but hey who knows), so yes, he's still probably seen that time travel is a thing. Even if he only sees timelines relating to the survivors, as long as there is a one in fourteen million (I think it was fourteen million? Millions anyway) chance that literally anyone else would come up with time travel, he'll have seen it, and fourteen million is a whole lot of chances. You may not think the characters would figure it out, but viewing that many futures means he has a chance to see even things with vanishingly small probabilities of happening, and then he just has to thread the needle.

    Scaling it down to a very basic level: There is definitely a possible victory scenario based on the laws of the MCU allowing for time travel. It is extremely likely that Strange sees some version of that scenario. Not being snapped means he can take an active role in attempting to make it come to pass, which is literally what he was doing on Titan in the first case. Hell it's literally what he's doing when he gives Tony that look in Endgame.

    You can't just discount the guy's future vision here.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 09-18-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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  14. #74
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    He viewed millions of possibilities. The snap is explicitly described as a matter of chance, meaning he almost definitely saw possibilities involving different sets of survivors and was possibly doing some RNG manipulation on Titan (that's a joke, but hey who knows), so yes, he's still probably seen that time travel is a thing. Even if he only sees timelines relating to the survivors, as long as there is a one in fourteen million (I think it was fourteen million? Millions anyway) chance that literally anyone else would come up with time travel, he'll have seen it, and fourteen million is a whole lot of chances. You may not think the characters would figure it out, but viewing that many futures means he has a chance to see even things with vanishingly small probabilities of happening, and then he just has to thread the needle.

    Scaling it down to a very basic level: There is definitely a possible victory scenario based on the laws of the MCU allowing for time travel. It is extremely likely that Strange sees some version of that scenario. Not being snapped means he can take an active role in attempting to make it come to pass, which is literally what he was doing on Titan in the first case. Hell it's literally what he's doing when he gives Tony that look in Endgame.

    You can't just discount the guy's future vision here.
    I'm not trying to discount it, but I do object to it being a 100% Auto-Win as was being debated by KJS. I'm also very wary of self-fulfilling prophesies and the numerous ways you can screw yourself over without knowing when trying to influence the future.

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