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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    She also was able to unlock Vision from the mind stone, right?
    She was? It looked like Vision died when Thanos took the mind stone so no would be my conclusion.

  2. #32
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockingmoses View Post
    I personally thought she's kinda Mary Sue.
    Oh good, the employment of an inherently gendered term to belittle competent and confident female characters.

    Ya love to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    I dunno. She talks like a Mary Sue,
    Now this I find flatly confusing.

    What does it mean for someone to /talk/ like a Mary Sue?
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  3. #33
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    The way she immediately proclaims an established character to basically be an idiot compared to her sounds pretty mary sueish at a glance, but as I said, the narrative doesn't actually back up her being all awesome and wonderful and perfect, whereas an ACTUAL mary sue would have the full support of the narrative. In other words, I am NOT on the side of calling her a Mary Sue, so calm down.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 09-17-2019 at 01:52 AM.

  4. #34
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    In other words, I am NOT on the side of calling her a Mary Sue, so calm down.
    I'm not really bothered about whether people feel Shuri is a Mary Sue or not, I'm more against the term as a concept because it isn't a very good or useful term in my opinion. My question to you was as I wrote it; I've never heard the accusation that there is a specific way that a Mary Sue talks before and I don't get what that is. I'm not attacking you, I just haven't heard that before.

    The way she immediately proclaims an established character to basically be an idiot compared to her sounds pretty mary sueish at a glance, but as I said, the narrative doesn't actually back up her being all awesome and wonderful and perfect, whereas an ACTUAL mary sue would have the full support of the narrative.
    Shuri is egotistical and very self-assured because she's a highly intelligent princess who is used to having effectively unquestionable authority. She talks like Tony. She talks like a confident and wise-cracking genius person as written in the MCU house style. Again, I don't personally see how this is somehow Mary Sue-ish when you have other characters who do the same thing without falling prey to the accusation.

    This is why I'm against the usage of the term; it tends to be employed as a way to look at confident female characters who exhibit the same traits as their male counterparts and claim that they are somehow invalid.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 09-17-2019 at 03:28 AM.
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  5. #35
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    I can't imagine for one second thinking Shuri is a Mary Sue and giving Tony Stark a free pass. Almost like women are held to higher standards and treated more harshly than men...

    Anyway, Shuri and the Pyms figure out the time travel angle. I dont think enough is ever made in the MCU of just how incredible Pym particles are. Beat the hell out of arc reactor tech. Scarlet Witch ccan handle the majority of the individual threats they're likely to encounter before you give her any kind of backup.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Oh good, the employment of an inherently gendered term to belittle competent and confident female characters.
    Oh... okay then
    I personally thought she's kinda Gary Stu.

    Or should I used Potato Stew instead?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockingmoses View Post
    Oh... okay then
    I personally thought she's kinda Gary Stu.

    Or should I used Potato Stew instead?
    You should be less of a sexist asshole, is the thing.

  8. #38
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockingmoses View Post
    Oh... okay then
    I personally thought she's kinda Gary Stu.

    Or should I used Potato Stew instead?
    While this response willfully misses the point I'm making and is a tad frustrating...

    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    You should be less of a sexist asshole, is the thing.
    ...this response is a bit over the line. I advise my Glaswegian friend to temper their language a little.

    Again, as noted in my previous reply to MichaelC - Mary Sue is primarily used to undermine female characters on grounds that simply would not apply to their male counterparts. The term is unhelpful, is usually used to provoke quite sexist arguments and honestly is super vague.

    You can not like Shuri all you like, but the reasons that have been given thus far [she is brash, intelligent and talks down to people] are traits that are shared by a number of male characters who don't get labelled with the same invalidating term.
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  9. #39
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    *sigh* There is no double-standard here. Stark is often self-deprecating. To listen to Stark talk, everyone is smarter and more important than he is. His first words to Banner were open admiration for his work in gamma rays. Indeed, one of the few arrogant things he says, calling himself a genius playboy philanthropist, was done when being influenced by Loki's scepter, and wasn't portrayed in a remotely positive light. Stark says humble things and then does amazing things. Post his origin story, what actual arrogant thing does Stark say to someone who isn't an antagonist, and isn't said after being influenced by the staff or Scarlett Witch?
    Last edited by MichaelC; 09-17-2019 at 04:12 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    *sigh* There is no double-standard here. Stark is often self-deprecating. To listen to Stark talk, everyone is smarter and more important than he is. His first words to Banner were open admiration for his work in gamma rays. Indeed, one of the few arrogant things he says, calling himself a genius playboy philanthropist, was done when being influenced by Loki's scepter, and wasn't portrayed in a remotely positive light. Stark says humble things and then does amazing things. Post his origin story, what actual arrogant thing does Stark say to someone who isn't an antagonist?
    ...

    If you don't think Tony speaks in an arrogant fashion then I honestly don't know what to tell ya.

    Tony is a guy who is defined by his ego and his relationship to it. Age of Ultron was literally the Avengers vs the personification of Stark's ego. Iron Man 2 is "Tony's ego runs wild: The Movie," With regards to him overcoming there character flaws, I refer you to my point earlier in this very thread about screentime; Tony has seven films where is either the main character or one of the main characters. He has undergone arcs and growth. Shuri has had one film where she was a supporting character and one where she was, at best, a bit part. He is a much more fleshed out character because he's been written to be so.

    And yet, despite her being written in a similar way to Tony at various points in his life - highly privileged, somewhat arrogant, furiously intelligent, unwilling to bend or defer to authority - she is called a Mary Sue. Again, I'm not saying you have to like her, my point is more that the Mary Sue moniker is disingenuous and doesn't help discussion.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 09-17-2019 at 04:20 AM.
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    You should be less of a sexist asshole, is the thing.
    so if I tell you that I find the Black Panther movie is overated, you're gonna call me a racist too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    While this response willfully misses the point I'm making and is a tad frustrating...
    Maybe, just

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Again, as noted in my previous reply to MichaelC - Mary Sue is primarily used to undermine female characters on grounds that simply would not apply to their male counterparts. The term is unhelpful, is usually used to provoke quite sexist arguments and honestly is super vague.
    Since when has it been so complicated?
    Mary Sue (female) Gary Stu (male): Characters that can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the protagonist of an established fictional setting, such as by saving the hero. Copied from Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    You can not like Shuri all you like, but the reasons that have been given thus far [she is brash, intelligent and talks down to people] are traits that are shared by a number of male characters who don't get labelled with the same invalidating term.
    minus the character development.... but wait, did Okoye get much character development? She's awesome.
    hmmmm..... maybe its the bratty feeling Shuri gave off?

    This is out of topic, so I'll bow out regardless of the replies. I'll keep in mind: Mary Sue, sexist term.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockingmoses View Post
    so if I tell you that I find the Black Panther movie is overated, you're gonna call me a racist too?

    Only if you use a racist phrase when doing so. If someone has an issue with Shuri, fine, if someone has an issue with Shuri and expresses it using gendered language, it heavily implies the dislike is rooted more in her being a woman than in her personality/actions.

  13. #43
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    I'm aware rockingmoses is bowing out but I'll address a few of the points for the sake of edification.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockingmoses View Post
    Since when has it been so complicated?
    Mary Sue (female) Gary Stu (male): Characters that can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the protagonist of an established fictional setting, such as by saving the hero. Copied from Wikipedia
    Okay, let's use your own terms. I'll note that people often wildly stretch this term but let's roll with the text we're given for this case.

    Shuri has effectively two films where she does things - Black Panther and Infinity War.

    In Black Panther, Shuri is established from the outset to be chief science officer of one of the most technologically advanced nations on the planet and is noted in text, if I recall rightly, as being an absurd genius even by that country's standards. Ergo, she is written to be highly educated and trained and her job is literally good-doer-of-science.

    In that film, she supports T'Challa and helps him in a number of situations with her tech. However, I don't think she upstages him at any point. T'Challa is the one who saves the kingdom, Martin Freeman's character is one who stops a global war from occurring by shooting down the planes. Shuri provides tech and wisecracks and that's about it. By the terms you've laid out above, Shuri isn't a Mary Sue in that film.

    In Infinity War, Shuri has an idea that Bruce didn't have about extracting the Mind Stone from Vision and condescends him a bit. She then attempts to complete the work but is unable to due to Thanos' forces overwhelming Wakanda's defences and taking her out. Again, she doesn't upstage the hero (if there is a hero to Infinity War it's arguably Iron Man or Thor and I don't think she meets either of them) and she doesn't do anything outside of her established capabilities of being extremely good with science and Vibranium based tech - which Vision is made of and she doesn't actually succeed.

    So... I can't see how you get to Mary Sue from that myself based on the terms that are given.

    minus the character development.... but wait, did Okoye get much character development? She's awesome.
    hmmmm..... maybe its the bratty feeling Shuri gave off?

    This is out of topic, so I'll bow out regardless of the replies. I'll keep in mind: Mary Sue, sexist term.
    I personally feel it's not a useful term. I would advise against employing it when discussing things because it's more trouble than it's worth.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    ...

    If you don't think Tony speaks in an arrogant fashion then I honestly don't know what to tell ya.
    Well then you should be able to easily give me examples.

    Tony is a guy who is defined by his ego and his relationship to it. Age of Ultron was literally the Avengers vs the personification of Stark's ego.
    No, Scarlett Witch messed with his mind, making him panic and desperate because he was convinced that everyone would die and it would be his fault. Not arrogance, mind-power created desperation.

    With regards to him overcoming there character flaws, I refer you to my point earlier in this very thread about screentime; Tony has seven films where is either the main character or one of the main characters. He has undergone arcs and growth. Shuri has had one film where she was a supporting character and one where she was, at best, a bit part. He is a much more fleshed out character because he's been written to be so.
    Which is why, as I said repeatedly, I don't consider her a Mary Sue. She says some arrogant things of the sort that sometimes foreshadow's a Mary Sue, but the narrative doesn't back her up, and implicitly portrays her arrogance as a flaw that needs to be overcome. Hence, not a Mary Sue.

    And yet, despite her being written in a similar way to Tony at various points in his life - highly privileged, somewhat arrogant, furiously intelligent, unwilling to bend or defer to authority - she is called a Mary Sue. Again, I'm not saying you have to like her, my point is more that the Mary Sue moniker is disingenuous and doesn't help discussion.
    She insults the intelligence of another non-antagonist character. Stark never does that post-origin story. That said, I don't think she's a Mary Sue, because the narrative doesn't take her side. A Mary Sue would follow up her insulting Banner's intelligence by having her casually disconnecting Vision from the gem and generally being astoundingly awesome and the center of the story. In fact, she fails to disconnect the gem, resulting in Vision's death, and fails at other things, some as simple as making her soundless sneakers actually be fairly noisey. If she were a Mary Sue, the narrative would have her casually succeed at everything and pound into us that she is perfectly justified in being arrogant.

  15. #45
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    I personally feel it's not a useful term. I would advise against employing it when discussing things because it's more trouble than it's worth.
    Yeah, I'm kind of glad it's starting to fall out of use. Like for all that aggravating self-inserts who solve all the conflicts that made a story interesting with this weird commonsense swagger are an actual thing, Mary Sue has always been a term largely used for attacking teenaged fanfic authors. I find myself not really bothered by the term, except that then people throw it at characters like Shuri who... I mean tell me whose self insert she is. Show me where she swaggers in and uses reason to explain to Thanos why he's wrong and that actually he should give the infinity gauntlet to her so she can put everyone in happy relationships despite no one being thankful for it or something. She said like, one condescending thing to Bruce Banner. Big deal (actually that did bug me a little bit, but for different trope reasons). Shotgunning the term out at any woman with the slightest bit of swagger is pretty much what ruins it.

    She insults the intelligence of another non-antagonist character. Stark never does that post-origin story.
    "Your math is... blowing my mind." And his mockery of Starlord is basically vindicated by the narrative like ten minutes later. Which is more than Shuri got
    Last edited by BitVyper; 09-17-2019 at 05:29 AM.
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