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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    the last time I remember anyone's personal life getting much attention, outside of a romantic subplot here or there, was around the time of Infinite Crisis when Hal was still ... dating Cowgirl.
    He dated a girl named what? I thought this was some kind of weird autocorrect thing for the two seconds it took me to look it up and see it was really a character's name...
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Not like it was her given name - that was just her call-sign, the way Hal's was "Highball."

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Not like it was her given name - that was just her call-sign, the way Hal's was "Highball."
    Correct, I believe her name was Jillian Pearlman, if memory serves. I reread the Johns run up until Brightest Day a few months back and that seems right to me.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Cowgirl was pretty cool, and it sucks we haven't seen her since.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Cowgirl was pretty cool, and it sucks we haven't seen her since.
    Yeah, she was fun. I loved what Johns did with Hal and Carol but it was too bad he had to completely drop Cowgirl from the book to do it.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    The truth is that...

    Kyle Rayner relevance greatly lessened. DC tried doing different things with him, but none of them really took. It's to the point now he's in limbo. But DC tried.

    John Stewart was ALWAYS in the background. Geoff Johns co. didn't really put him there. They just didn't do anything with him to raise his profile when they could. They simply were not interested in this character.

    Guy Gardner benefited from Rebirth. He came out of mothballs and led the Green Lantern Corps book until 2013, when he was moved over to Red Lanterns.
    Kyle was doomed as a character from the moment DC decided to put his girlfriend in a fridge.Everything after that was then pretending he was going to be relevant and now they don't even bother to pretend.

  7. #22
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    The relative prominence of each GL depends greatly on whether or not there's someone with a strong creative vision for a particular character that both DC editorial and readers get behind.

    In the case of Hal Jordan, there was about 20 years of an editorially mandated limbo in which DC knew that sales spiked whenever he appeared, but they didn't want him to be GL again in modern continuity, despite many creators wanting to use him. During this same period, John Stewart and Guy Gardner were in the same boat, although things changed quickly for John when he was chosen to be the GL for the Justice League cartoon.

    When DC Editorial changed, Hal, Guy & the GLCorps were free to be used in their most popular forms again, which meant that Kyle Rayner's role as the defacto GL was going to change. To DC's credit, they've tried many times to give the character a new role, but none of them have been particularly successful, perhaps because his main draw as a character was seeing this young man trying to live up to this great heroic legacy that had been tainted by tragedy, loss, and betrayal. Once Kyle had accomplished that goal, there was nowhere left for him to go narratively. The same could be said of poor Wally West, whose character arc was similar in that he was trying to live up to Barry's legacy. Once he'd accomplished that, and surpassed Barry in most respects, there wasn't any clear direction for the character to go.

    This isn't to say Kyle can't be given a creative direction that will resonate with readers like his original hero's journey from boy to man did, but nobody's figured one out yet.

    John Stewart is in the same boat. When he had Dwayne McDuffie in his corner as the main creative behind him on the Justice League cartoon, he sang. McDuffie was meant to continue that with John in the Justice League of America comic, but he apparently committed the unpardonable sin of pointing out to readers that a lot of the creative decisions that were made in that comic were editorially mandated, so he got fired off the book before he could do anything significant with John, and died a couple years afterwards. Since then, no other creator has managed to get readers excited about John, although editorial indecision and mismanagement of the entire GL franchise has certainly played a big part of that.

    Guy has some very loyal fans (myself included), but doesn't really seem to be enough of them to support him getting more of the spotlight at the moment. That's doubly true for Simon Baz, whose fanbase seems to be the smallest of all the Earth-based GLs. Personally, I think both of these guys are better suited to team books, but there's always the possibility that some great creators could come around and work wonders with them as solo characters.

    Jessica Cruz, I think, was lightning in a bottle thanks to having the best origin of any GL since a dying Abin Sur passed on his ring to Hal Jordan. Her concept of a young woman with crippling trauma overcoming her fear is Geoff Johns's entire thesis for GL personified as one character. Add onto that great hook the fact that she's a Latina, which doesn't hurt her appeal to a very underserved portion of superhero readers, and you've got a character that will no doubt be very prominent for the foreseeable future.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    I think the truth is with a franchise with a large set of cast members, many of them are going to come in and out of focus over time. Hal was the default for so many years and he may be too engrained to be replaced as that (a bit like how Miles Morales will never replace Peter Parker as the Spider-Man). So it might seem (and be) unfair that he'll always be guaranteed a place unlike the others, but that's the way things go. Would say that the big name non-Hal Lanterns seem to have shown staying power, so I don't think it's likely that they're going to be disappearing any time soon, thus will always have the chance for a revival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But there's no question that Hal is the star and has been since Rebirth.
    Course, during Rebirth, he was given a team series only, while another duo had a solo series and where the GL members of the Justice League series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    As to the JL Animated, where John was written as the founder and Lead GL, that continued with John. Hal never replaced him there.

    And with the return of the Justice League Animated, if anything they expanded to include Jessica not Hal
    Hal was seen in the future museum as a notable Lantern of history in that movie, but fair enough that he was never seen in the flesh or seemed to be as important to things as Rainer, Stewart and Cruz were in that world (heck, as I recall, Rainer basically replaced Hal in terms of origin story and role in the Corps, kinda like how any version of the Flash these days in adaptations is basically classic Wally West, even if the name is "Barry Allen").

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    That's doubly true for Simon Baz, whose fanbase seems to be the smallest of all the Earth-based GLs. Personally, I think both of these guys are better suited to team books, but there's always the possibility that some great creators could come around and work wonders with them as solo characters.
    I like Simon Baz a lot myself. Not sure why he didn't catch on (bad luck of the draw, too similar to other characters?), but that's a shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Jessica Cruz, I think, was lightning in a bottle thanks to having the best origin of any GL since a dying Abin Sur passed on his ring to Hal Jordan. Her concept of a young woman with crippling trauma overcoming her fear is Geoff Johns's entire thesis for GL personified as one character. Add onto that great hook the fact that she's a Latina, which doesn't hurt her appeal to a very underserved portion of superhero readers, and you've got a character that will no doubt be very prominent for the foreseeable future.
    That's my favorite of them. Wonder if her having a more varied personality helped her stand out a bit. She can get pretty high strung even outside of her disorder, but is also a dork and one of the nicest people you'll find in the hero business. The use in adaptations will probably help. Not sure if she could topple Hal in popularity (and we have seen characters who had a strong start and then faded back, like Rainer) but she seems to be doing fine so far.
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  9. #24
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    So where was he written that way?
    Of course you have proof of this.
    Or are you...
    He was written this way merely by the fact that he got booted out of headlining his previous title, "Green Lantern," which Hal Jordan swiftly occupied, to heading up some short lived offshoot titled ION: Guardian of the Universe. Kyle Rayner would NEVER headline the the Green Lantern comic again up to the point of my typing this.

    And I love how the story and context; which ring and title he got just magically "doesn't matter".
    It doesn't. You're caught up in some fictional story points. I'm talking about THE REAL WORLD. In REAL WORLD, Kyle Rayner's relevance as a character diminished when Hal Jordan returned. Point in fact, DC gave Johns the go ahead to kill Kyle Rayner if he wanted to, because DC editorial had no intention of seriously investing in the character anymore.

    Right, cause you know if you acknowledged it, you'd have to recognize the concept was "ALWAYS' bigger than just Kyle.
    And that included Hal, John, Guy and the Corps.
    whatever. This literally doesn't say anything to the points I'm making. Kyle Rayner's relevance went down when Hal returned. John was basically in the same state of getting little focus, sometimes even less when Hal returned (kicked out of the JLA so Hal Jordan can take his place and sent into limbo), and Guy Gardner's profile went up (came out of mothballs to lead the Green Lantern Corps title).

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Kyle Rayner absolutely lost headlining status upon the return of Hal Jordan. But he had simply inherited that from Hal, so it's not really surprising that it reverted back.

    It's a bit like a football team where the starting quarterback gets hurt. Hal was out indefinitely, and Kyle took his place and guided the team to some solid wins. And when Hal returned to the QB role, Kyle was relegated to mopup duty during blowout games.

    But perhaps a basketball analogy would work better, given that they can play simultaneously....

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    ^ Another lie.

    John, once the young open minded, artistic Green Lantern, as it was revealed his getting the ring was prophetic choice, took guardianship of the Mosaic which becomes a literal transformation, he inevitably fulfills that prophecy, channeling the powers of the Guardians themselves, finally becoming a Guardian in power and aspect.
    If that was so important-why does no one mention it nor it that run made it to trade.

    Kyle always had SOMEONE allowed to try to do something with Kyle.
    Be it Titans
    Be it Ion
    Be it Omega Men
    Be it White Lantern
    No one can say no one tried stuff with Kyle. He got trades starring HIM on the shelf.

    John Stewart fared BETTER when Diane Nelson was around. Not by much. 14 year MIA after he showed up. 5 years of being around when Hal retired. Then came that planet reenacting the Death Star (that NEVER went away for John). Then Mosaic and that editor who hated the book. Limbo and a wheel chair. Justice League due to a cartoon. More crap about that stupid planet. McDuffie's Justice League. New 52 the era of a neutered John Stewart. Who was suppose to be killed off (thus Simon & Jessica arrive).
    The ONE good writer that John had got shown the door. More restriction to the Hal Jordan love book. Crumbs for John fans in Justice League.

    Guy (see Kyle)-someone was willing to do something with him. Especially in other books.
    Jessica is doing better OUTSIDE of comics (like John has).
    Simon-less said the better. SADLY.

    Folks bring up Spider-Man.
    One MAJOR difference with that franchise is NO ONE WAS RUINED TO BUILD ANYONE ELSE UP. Ben Riley & Ultimate Peter Parker notwithstanding.
    There was no Peter Parker and the Spider Bunch where the artist said '"this is a PETER book and the rest are background."
    It's no longer PETER bringing in all the money. It's Miles, Venom, Gwen, Miguel, Peter Porker and others bringing it in too.
    Marvel did not start a fan war in Spider-Man.

    What has starting fans wars gotten DC?

    A SPLINTERED Green Lantern, Robin, Flash, Batgirl (sort of), Firestorm and WORST of all Blue Beetle fandom.
    I hope DC enjoy those lower than expected sales.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    John, once the young open minded, artistic Green Lantern, as it was revealed his getting the ring was prophetic choice, took guardianship of the Mosaic which becomes a literal transformation, he inevitably fulfills that prophecy, channeling the powers of the Guardians themselves, finally becoming a Guardian in power and aspect.
    That once still sounds ghastly to me. Not that similar hasn't been done with Guy and Kyle, and even Hal. Being one of the very few fearless and special chosen just somehow isn't special enough, and we need to make sure this one everyone knows this is more special in really convoluted ways (it just screams "trying too hard" to me, and I hate prophecies, anyway). At least Kyle's wasn't retconned in.

    One MAJOR difference with that franchise is NO ONE WAS RUINED TO BUILD ANYONE ELSE UP. Ben Riley & Ultimate Peter Parker notwithstanding.
    Yeah, seems like Hal was torn down a lot to try to build up John, and especially Kyle. Can't say it really seemed that way with Guy. Haven't read the new Lanterns.

    Kyle Rayner absolutely lost headlining status upon the return of Hal Jordan. But he had simply inherited that from Hal, so it's not really surprising that it reverted back.

    It's a bit like a football team where the starting quarterback gets hurt. Hal was out indefinitely, and Kyle took his place and guided the team to some solid wins. And when Hal returned to the QB role, Kyle was relegated to mopup duty during blowout games.

    But perhaps a basketball analogy would work better, given that they can play simultaneously....
    Pretty fair assessment.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 09-17-2019 at 03:48 PM.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Folks bring up Spider-Man.
    One MAJOR difference with that franchise is NO ONE WAS RUINED TO BUILD ANYONE ELSE UP. Ben Riley & Ultimate Peter Parker notwithstanding.
    There was no Peter Parker and the Spider Bunch where the artist said '"this is a PETER book and the rest are background."
    It's no longer PETER bringing in all the money. It's Miles, Venom, Gwen, Miguel, Peter Porker and others bringing it in too.
    Marvel did not start a fan war in Spider-Man.
    I think because it's pretty much a given that they can't tear down Peter to replace him. It's a given that he's the lead Spider-Man. Unlike the GL, which were established as a being an intergalactic space corps of multiple members in the Silver Age (even if there was at the time only one) the vast majority of the published Spider-Man history is about one lead character. Hal has held that status for most of the GL history, but not as consistently as Peter. No Spider-Men predate him, he is the original model and has never NOT been one of the most popular superheroes ever created. He's the center the rest revolve around and it cannot be disputed. With that in mind, it might be easier for Marvel to utilize the rest because they are extensions of the brand (like an extended Bat-Family) without expectation that they will replaced the real deal. Now I think franchising such a property to such a degree is always a bad thing and flooding the market with Spider stuff, like DC does with Bat-stuff, is one of the things that makes everything seem even more corporate than it already is. But I can respect Miles at least, and hey it seems to work.

    With the GL franchise, it was actually doing the best it had ever done with Hal's return by Geoff Johns. Kyle faded into the background as a consequence of his whole deal being upended, which honestly seems inevitable in hindsight, but they kept him around and he participated in Sinestro Corps War. John stayed more or less the same, but Guy got relevance again, and the franchise was healthy enough to spawn two new Earth Lanterns. Simon got lost in the crowd due to bad timing I think, but Jessica is a hit. I can't see the claim that DC is tearing anyone down for Hal. He may not be Peter Parker, Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne level, but he's the closest thing the GL has to that type of lead. Which, considering the GL mythos as we know it was built up around him and its most successful period ever was connected to his return to the forefront, feels pretty earned.

    DC could do more with the others, but the franchise in general isn't as healthy as it was since Johns left. Hal's the lead, if the franchise can't sustain multiple books, it makes sense he'd still get the most page time. If the Bat-brand finally collapses on itself, Bruce is gonna remain the star after all and the rest will have to find places to guest star.

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Kyle was doomed as a character from the moment DC decided to put his girlfriend in a fridge.Everything after that was then pretending he was going to be relevant and now they don't even bother to pretend.
    Yeah, it's true. He only carried the entire franchise on his shoulders for eleven years after that happened......dude was doomed from the start! I mean, I hate the fridging as much as the next person but this comment is just......that happened within Kyle's first what, four-six months of publication? This was right before Zero Hour had even hit! And his run as the main/only Lantern lasted eleven years. I'm pretty sure Major Force putting his girlfriend in a fridge is not what doomed Kyle. Maybe it doomed him for you personally (and that's certainly fair), but clearly not for everyone else because he remained very popular for a very long time after Alex was killed.

    In all seriousness, what happened with Kyle is that his original character arc hit it's logical conclusion and no one knew what to do with him after that. He went through the hero's journey, grew up into a full blown adult, became comfortable and competent in his role as a Lantern, and then.......DC had no idea where to take him. A few lackluster runs later Hal returns, and at that point the entire foundation Kyle's character had been built on was gone. He was no longer a rookie trying to learn the ropes and he was no longer the last Lantern in the universe. And DC thought that Kyle's appeal was rooted in his "snowflake" status, so they made him Ion 2.0 (the first was just a storyline, nothing to get wound up about), they made him the White Lantern, etc etc., anything to keep him unique, without realizing that what made Kyle work was his Everyman status juxtaposed against the fantastical Lantern elements. He was a great reader surrogate living a very normal, mundane life, but when he went to work it was in space, and he was fighting crazy alien despots. Great contrast.

    The way you make Kyle matter again is by putting him back on earth and explore his personal life as much as his heroic one. You Peter Parker the hell out of it, and you've got a solid title. Hell, we haven't had much focus on the personal lives of any Lantern outside of their work in ages, this would even check DC's "Kyle must be different and unique!" mindset.
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  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Yeah, it's true. He only carried the entire franchise on his shoulders for eleven years after that happened......dude was doomed from the start! I mean, I hate the fridging as much as the next person but this comment is just......that happened within Kyle's first what, four-six months of publication? This was right before Zero Hour had even hit! And his run as the main/only Lantern lasted eleven years. I'm pretty sure Major Force putting his girlfriend in a fridge is not what doomed Kyle. Maybe it doomed him for you personally (and that's certainly fair), but clearly not for everyone else because he remained very popular for a very long time after Alex was killed.

    In all seriousness, what happened with Kyle is that his original character arc hit it's logical conclusion and no one knew what to do with him after that. He went through the hero's journey, grew up into a full blown adult, became comfortable and competent in his role as a Lantern, and then.......DC had no idea where to take him. A few lackluster runs later Hal returns, and at that point the entire foundation Kyle's character had been built on was gone. He was no longer a rookie trying to learn the ropes and he was no longer the last Lantern in the universe. And DC thought that Kyle's appeal was rooted in his "snowflake" status, so they made him Ion 2.0 (the first was just a storyline, nothing to get wound up about), they made him the White Lantern, etc etc., anything to keep him unique, without realizing that what made Kyle work was his Everyman status juxtaposed against the fantastical Lantern elements. He was a great reader surrogate living a very normal, mundane life, but when he went to work it was in space, and he was fighting crazy alien despots. Great contrast.

    The way you make Kyle matter again is by putting him back on earth and explore his personal life as much as his heroic one. You Peter Parker the hell out of it, and you've got a solid title. Hell, we haven't had much focus on the personal lives of any Lantern outside of their work in ages, this would even check DC's "Kyle must be different and unique!" mindset.
    That's kind of a problem with a "hero's journey" type narrative. The logical conclusion of the story is for it to, well, have an end to the journey. Frodo Baggins is one of the most iconic examples, and that one has a finite ending. DC and Marvel are not designed to ever end, for better or worse, so I can see why it would be difficult for DC to come up with something else for Kyle once his original character arc reached its inevitable end. Not impossible, almost nothing is impossible and we can't see the future, but it's perhaps not surprising the state he's in now.

    You could Peter Parker it up, but the competition has actual Peter Parker that people could spend their money on. I'm not sure if a Peter Parker is something the DCU even needs when Marvel has already done it so well. And to be honest (and very biased) that's why Kyle doesn't appeal to me personally, I'd rather just read the real deal.

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