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  1. #271
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I don't know; I generally like it (got copies of the TV show, movie, and comics), but I'm honestly not surprised that it was canceled; even excusing the fact that it was badly marketed and aired out of order, it's such a weird premise (the old west in space almost steampunk-style) that I kinda think it's an acquired taste. I also found the snark got excessive and distracting (I do understand that Joss Whedon writes stuff where the characters mostly speak in snark, but I find it gets grating after a few rewatches). I think it holds its own on the strength of its characters and could've remained a decent run had it lasted longer (although that assumes that the quality wouldn't drop too much over time, as is inevitable).

    However, besides the overuse of snark, I do have to admit that there were a surprisingly high number of episodes that I wasn't a huge fan of (a couple I really didn't like, others I'm "meh" about the stories). I guess my boat is that I generally like it for what it was, but I think its fan base grossly overrates it and that its more of a mixed bag then not (I like Whedon's Avengers movies a lot more). But, seeing as I was invested with the Dark Horse comics to be annoyed that the new Boom Studios ones are an effective reboot that will not resolve the cliffhangers or move things forward over rehashing the "best of" era (albeit the best possible kind of rehash), I may not be as removed from the fandom as I think.



    I don't know; Quill has always been a "Crouching Moron, Hidden Bad****" (to quote TV Tropes) at the best of times. Also, his emotional problems and losses really weren't played for laughs that much. (Endgame did make him the joke more, but, as noted before, his thing is that he really is a joke who's unexpectedly resourceful. (He's kind of a Captain Jack Sparrow-like figure in some ways).
    I don't think you and I have anything in common, really.
    To each their own.
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  2. #272
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Solo failed because nobody behind-the-scenes could agree on what a Han Solo before Han Solo should actually be or actually become. Should they end the movie with the Han who shoots first, or the Han who would one day say "Changed my mind, kid". That compromise is what you see in the movie. The result was production fights, tonal issues, casting issues, and so on. The people behind the making of SOLO are talented individuals : Kathleen Kennedy, Lawrence Kasdan, Lord and Miller, then Ron Howard who took over, Alden Ehrenreich who was discovered by Francis Coppola (the same guy who discovered Harrison Ford when he worked as a carpenter in his office) is actually a very talented and capable actor. I think if that much talent couldn't make the concept work, then there's something wrong/flawed/limited about the concept.
    Well that's a bit of a shift away from saying Solo failed solely due to a lack of Leia. I generally agree that those issues didn't serve the film well.


    Peter Quill featured in a movie that largely sold because of its soundtrack and the fact that it made a talking raccoon into a serious character for the first time ever. There's the reason that the Russos when choosing to represent the Guardians in IW and ENDGAME chose the Raccoon and made Quill into a joke. To quote James Gunn himself, "Rocket Raccoon is me".
    I think that's a pretty simplified take on the film's (and it's sequels) success, which at the time was championed as revitalising the superhero genre and being one of the MCU's best hits since Iron Man. You seem to take note of critic reviews, so then you'd know that the overall characterisation of all the Guardians characters were praised for their rogueish disposition, for which I think we can thank Han, Han be praised.



    A cult anime series vastly more popular in the west than in Japan.
    And doesn't that make sense, seeing how reminiscent it's characters are of a western property such as Star Wars?


    Was that even in the main ceremony or was that in some technical awards thing that wasn't aired?
    Dunno, don't think it matters - an award for achievement speaks for itself.



    It's popularity among the "happy few" (i.e. cult success) yes, that can't be denied.
    When we take into account other pop culture cult successes - Blade Runner, The Thing, Battlestar Galactica, Farscape, etc - that's not exactly poor company. Sci-fi and fandom is practically built on cult success.
    Last edited by Zeitgeist; 09-28-2019 at 12:19 AM.
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  3. #273
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Well that's a bit of a shift away from saying Solo failed solely due to a lack of Leia. I generally agree that those issues didn't serve the film well.
    They are related. Han eventually transformed as a character after meeting Luke and Leia. So if you are trying to dial before that you need a sense of what defines the character. If you can't agree on that, which is clear that the pe, ople behind Solo didn't, then it suggests that what really defined the character is his interactions with others. I mean this kind of proves why Lucas made those edits so that Han doesn't shoot Greedo first. I never got the fuss about that change (or the fuss over any of Lucas' edits, they're fine by me) but it kind of highlights Lucas trying to make it clear that Han is defined by the character he becomes and not who people imagine him to be. Lucas said that it didn't make sense for people to see or imagine Han as a cold-blooded killer if eventually he was going to be with Leia. And he's probably correct. Solo was such a failure that it made less money than the A New Hope Special Edition re-release with the removal of "Han shot first".

    To return to the previous issue...does that mean Han is now a lesser character because he depends so much on Luke and Leia. I don't think so. I mean the fact is in real life few people are such strong individuals that they could say that friends and family and lovers didn't play a part in defining or shaping someone. And these "strong individuals" well they could be saintly leaders but they are also frequently Charles Manson types. That should be true for characters too. Han Solo is inspired by Rick Blaine from Casablanca. That character is very much defined by his relationships with Renault, Sam, Ilsa and others. Rick Blaine and Han Solo aren't saints or Charles Manson types, they are normal everyday people caught in big events, so it's normal to accept that they are shaped and defined by other characters. That's true likewise for Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson, neither are saints or Mansons, and Peter's entire ethos is that he's defined by the people around him to whom he has responsibility.

    I think that's a pretty simplified take on the film's (and it's sequels) success, which at the time was championed as revitalising the superhero genre and being one of the MCU's best hits since Iron Man.
    I love Guardians and the James Gunn movies, but the movie made an impression because of its style. James Gunn has that distinct ear for music which Wes Anderson and Scorsese (and also Tarantino) do, in that the songs chosen for the movies tend to sound of a piece when edited together in a way they don't when you listen to it separately.

    You seem to take note of critic reviews, so then you'd know that the overall characterisation of all the Guardians characters were praised for their rogueish disposition, for which I think we can thank Han, Han be praised.
    It's praised for the sincerity, and affection that James Gunn has for these flawed characters and for the way Gunn is able to show them overcome the self-defeating and self-sabotaging attitudes these characters suffer from. He also shows them as a group unit where their interactions define and shape each other. Peter Quill for instance would never be able to carry a movie on his own. He's defined by his connection to Yondu and Gamora. And in IW and Endgame, the Russos didn't know what to do with him so he became this joke character.

    Rocket Raccoon by contrast works wonderfully with non-Guardians, like his interactions with Thor in the Avengers movies, then with Tony Stark ("Remember you're only a genius on Earth, pal!") and the fact that Black Widow when she hears that Time Travel's a thing and surprises Ant-Man by how quickly she buys it, and her response is "I've met a talking raccoon, your argument is invalid, time travel's a thing now". Which is pretty much how audiences went after seeing Guardians. Like anything is possible now.

  4. #274
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Whedon has been experiencing a backlash of late. I like Dr. Horrible (which to me is Superior Spider-Man done right...Neil Patrick Harris would make an awesome Octopus) but most of his stuff is fairly overpraised (and that includes his work in comics).
    Only comics by him I know I read was a Runaways story arc. Remember it being good overall (if a little overstuffed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And a lot of people have raised issues about his approach to "strong female characters" since it's always one variant of kickass types and so on...
    I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    ...(that letter by his ex-wife painting him as a class-a hypocrite kind of confirmed suspicions a lot of people had about his work, especially given that Whedon was oh-so proud of slipping in "mewling quim" in Avengers 2012). And yeah his dialogue is annoying.
    Saw that in the news. Always disappointing to hear about stuff like that. Found his Avengers writing didn't overdo it as much as the Firefly show did. Make of what what you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As for Serenity and Firefly, I like Nathan Fillion and Morena Baccarin and I am glad that Whedon gave them work, and the show had potential but it also felt kind of...is-that-all-there-is.
    I would agree that the cast was the best part of it (although Jayne, Wash, and Kaylee were my favorites). As far as the "is-that-all-there-is"aspect, I think that it really suffers from getting axed; the TV show itself ends with nothing resolved, so you have decent set up for things, but no payoff. The movie does wrap many things up, but it also ends with new plot threads unanswered. Beyond that, the original comics picked up the story, but they left off on even more cliffhangers, with the current run only telling flashback stories with no intent to finish things. It's a fun ride while it lasts, but it's not really going anywhere or given any kind of conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And I also think the show's attitude is dubious especially given that the premise was inspired by a book called Rebel Angels which is about Confederate soldiers who go rogue rather than submit to the Union...even if it was because they fought for slavery and didn't want it going away. By abstracting that attitude to a space-opera setting and making the characters whine about the war they lost, it's basically...removed politics from that attitude which to me is pretty dubious.
    Yeah, have heard questions raised about whether the show's Civil War inspirations taint it beyond value or not. Couldn't say for sure if removing the negative elements to create a new setting for that kind of story was good or bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Say what you want about George Lucas, but that dude commits. He doesn't let you forget for one second in the prequels that Anakin Skywalker is fascism-curious and increasingly becomes convinced about totalitarianism.
    Course, we were supposed to be against Anakin, while we were "supposed" to be rooting for the Firefly crew, so it does make sense that they would be handled differently.
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  5. #275

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    The main complaint about the story seems to be about the concept rather than the execution, which suggests that the problem wasn't that JJ Abrams' son was writing such a major project as his comics writing debut. That's a dog that didn't bark.

  6. #276
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The main complaint about the story seems to be about the concept rather than the execution, which suggests that the problem wasn't that JJ Abrams' son was writing such a major project as his comics writing debut. That's a dog that didn't bark.
    To be fair, the concept is whatever and the execution is just as whatever, a bad idea can work just fine under the right execution, it's how super heroes manage to stay around after all.

  7. #277
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The main complaint about the story seems to be about the concept rather than the execution, which suggests that the problem wasn't that JJ Abrams' son was writing such a major project as his comics writing debut. That's a dog that didn't bark.
    Well, when you're told that the dog is going to bark...
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  8. #278
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    I feel like Sony is going to look at this and think it'll be a good idea for a movie.

  9. #279

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    This seems very similar to Mayday's story.

  10. #280
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Spider-Man View Post
    This seems very similar to Mayday's story.
    It sure does, funny huh?
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #281
    Amazing Member Junco's Avatar
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    https://www.newsarama.com/47782-abra...-11-weeks.html

    #3 Pushed back 3 weeks, #4 pushed back 11.

    Might as well push it back to the 12th of Never.

    [edit] I did not notice that anyone bothered to make more than one thread for this book.

  12. #282
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junco View Post
    https://www.newsarama.com/47782-abra...-11-weeks.html

    #3 Pushed back 3 weeks, #4 pushed back 11.

    Might as well push it back to the 12th of Never.

    [edit] I did not notice that anyone bothered to make more than one thread for this book.
    Some people actually like the book and want to see it finish.
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  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Some people actually like the book and want to see it finish.
    Who?

  14. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I feel like Sony is going to look at this and think it'll be a good idea for a movie.
    I hope not.

  15. #285
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Who?
    Apparently no one here, which doesn't indicate overall readership.
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