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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yeah, not feeling any of this. If forward thinking means unresolved character assassination on Jor-El, giving classic Superman dynamics and adventures to Jon, losing his dual identity so he can play president, etc, then I'm quite unashamed to admit that I'll be over here, actually wishing for stasis instead. I still like Action but this just might be a wrap for me on Superman. I mean, Jon potentially being gone "for good" for a while is a net positive for me, but the Jor-El thing is yet another slap. 1 step forward, 5 steps back.
    Agreed on the Jor-El stuff, not so much on the Jon stuff.

  2. #32
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    I can see that what was done with Krypton and mainly jor El isn't something easy to digest. But it's not without merit.

    Jor El and Lara were always barely characters. And jor El being in a cult who thinks is better equipped to shape the future I would argue is in character. I mean for 80 years he was the guy who thought he knew better than anyone, that Krypton will be destroyed based only on his findings. Jor El was always arrogant.

    I don't think jor El being a person with failings reduces superman. On the other hand it pretty much solidifies that Superman is a unique individual born of two worlds and his unbreakable moral compass and instinct of right is due to his unique nature and not his heritage.

    And while I won't argue the simple elegance of the original destruction of Krypton. I just don't find this way of going out being any less interesting. Again I get it if it's not for anyone but it's not a deal breaker for me. Especially with the real emotion it brings out in Clark.
    If you think about it even the best in continuity superman writers of the last 20 years never introduced new ideas to the character. Busiek my favorite writer of the 00s, who wrote the amazing Camelot falls, just retold '' must there be a superman '' pretty much. John's just told basic team ups and first meetings, which while enjoyable they were just that. Pak the same. Morrison was tasked with just recontextualizing and showing what was great already. Tomasi, Gleason while I love their run, it was a safe family friendly story without any real risks. I love all those runs (Morrisons ac is my fave superman story). I don't think bendis run is better that the stories I listed, but he does offer a viable exciting new status quo.

    And at the end of the day I am happy that Bendis is willing to ask different questions with Superman

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Not only is the simple death of Krypton elegant, it’s also extremely topical for a dying planet to ignore the pleas of scientists.

    Between that and being an alien refugee, Superman’s seemingly simple origin was extremely suited to modern times. The new developments may provide more story potential, but it makes the story and character less resonant IMO.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  4. #34
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Not only is the simple death of Krypton elegant, it’s also extremely topical for a dying planet to ignore the pleas of scientists.

    Between that and being an alien refugee, Superman’s seemingly simple origin was extremely suited to modern times. The new developments may provide more story potential, but it makes the story and character less resonant IMO.
    It does resonate with the dirty politics, super powers shaping the future of weaker countries with close door deals.

    But you are right the original origin is both topical and elegant. No argument there.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Jor El and Lara were always barely characters.
    Lara, maybe, not Jor-El. Not during the silver age Superboy era. I didn't really like that set-up, but he had a significant presence, to my mind.

    I don't think jor El being a person with failings reduces superman.
    I think "a person with failings" is an extremely generous way to describe this Jor-El. Extremely.

  6. #36
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Lara, maybe, not Jor-El. Not during the silver age Superboy era. I didn't really like that set-up, but he had a significant presence, to my mind.

    I think "a person with failings" is an extremely generous way to describe this Jor-El. Extremely.
    Okay some pretty big failings :P

  7. #37
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    This was pretty solid, overall. Main thing I was sad for is that we won't get the "Jor-El brings Ma and Pa back" moment that we all talked about. That would have been awesome! But still, everything seems organic.

    And I agree with the love for this version of Zod. Absolutely! Lots of potential here, it's great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_of_Tomorrow View Post
    If you think about it even the best in continuity superman writers of the last 20 years never introduced new ideas to the character. Busiek my favorite writer of the 00s, who wrote the amazing Camelot falls, just retold '' must there be a superman '' pretty much. John's just told basic team ups and first meetings, which while enjoyable they were just that. Pak the same. Morrison was tasked with just recontextualizing and showing what was great already. Tomasi, Gleason while I love their run, it was a safe family friendly story without any real risks. I love all those runs (Morrisons ac is my fave superman story). I don't think bendis run is better that the stories I listed, but he does offer a viable exciting new status quo.
    To your challenge, I give you the answer that everybody here is likely expecting I'd give: Dan Jurgens. He was one cog in a group for the most part, yes, but a LOT of changes came under his time on the books. Death/Return, Marriage, Red/Blue, and Jon. And while you could say that many of those are modern versions of older ideas, there's a lot that unique and new about them beyond just being brought into continuity.

    That said, this is some bold storytelling, and while I'm not as thrilled about every upcoming development, it is interesting so far. So we'll just have to see where it leads for now.
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  8. #38
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    This was pretty solid, overall. Main thing I was sad for is that we won't get the "Jor-El brings Ma and Pa back" moment that we all talked about. That would have been awesome! But still, everything seems organic.

    And I agree with the love for this version of Zod. Absolutely! Lots of potential here, it's great.



    To your challenge, I give you the answer that everybody here is likely expecting I'd give: Dan Jurgens. He was one cog in a group for the most part, yes, but a LOT of changes came under his time on the books. Death/Return, Marriage, Red/Blue, and Jon. And while you could say that many of those are modern versions of older ideas, there's a lot that unique and new about them beyond just being brought into continuity.

    That said, this is some bold storytelling, and while I'm not as thrilled about every upcoming development, it is interesting so far. So we'll just have to see where it leads for now.
    Dan is one of the men responsible for the best single status quo in the 90s which expanded the mythos and the cast with reign of supermen. Red and blue is something that just doesn't last, you see they weren't any lasting appeal or changes or expansion of mythos because of it. It was a fun side story. Jon and the marriage, I guess he deserves credit, but others expanded on his ideas better. Tomasi for example has a bigger influence on Jon that Jurgens.

    I have to say I think his golden age has passed and I never feel invested in his current stories. I was one of the few that thought his rebirth action comics was barebones storytelling.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Not really. Mr. Oz identity was still undefined when Johns introduced him.
    When Johns first introduced Mr. Oz it was heavily hinted at that he was either Jor El or possibly Pa Kent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yeah, not feeling any of this. If forward thinking means unresolved character assassination on Jor-El, giving classic Superman dynamics and adventures to Jon, losing his dual identity so he can play president, etc, then I'm quite unashamed to admit that I'll be over here, actually wishing for stasis instead. I still like Action but this just might be a wrap for me on Superman. I mean, Jon potentially being gone "for good" for a while is a net positive for me, but the Jor-El thing is yet another slap. 1 step forward, 5 steps back.
    I gotta agree. Having Jor El be the person who created Rogal Zar was an interesting twist but I was really hoping it would be revealed that Zar didn’t actually destroy Krypton. The story of Krypton’s destruction should always be tied into the hubris of its ruling Council. Having the planet meet its end because of their arrogance and environmental destruction is so much more impactful. A cautionary tale and one that makes Superman fight even harder to protect earth and the people who live on it. Having Jor El create a monster that destroys Krypton is super weak.

    I also dislike the fact that not only has the Legion been taken away from Superman’s past but even the idea of the United Planets wasn’t his. Bendis aged Jon up, kinda made the character his own, and gave him a big chunk of Superman’s mythos.
    Last edited by Robotman; 09-18-2019 at 03:55 PM.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I liked it. Fairly weak ending to the Jor-El plotline, I was hoping he would stick around and he and Kal would but heads over the direction of the United Planets, but his final moment was sweet and reminded me of Birthright. But I like that Zod and Kal are trying to bury the hatchet and reading this right after HoX definitely gave me Magneto vibes in regards to the relationship between Kal and Zod going forward. We’ll see if Bendis delivers on that. Art was gorgeous, Reis nails those big spreads.

    This whole “he ruined Jor” thing doesn’t really make sense to me. In Johns Last Son arc Jor-El AI tells Superman that Kal needs to remember “you are MY son, not theirs (humans)”. He also repeatedly reminds Kal that he’s not human even though he lives like one. In the New 52 he built a machine that forcibly brainwashed Krypton to make them less aggressive. Jor has always been dickish even if it’s been less than the extent of Zod.

    I’m looking forward to the President Superman plotline. For those of you who dislike Bendis, take heart in how he handled Jor-El: Once he’s done with something he has no problem resetting things to the status quo. Once he’s done with Legion and Jon, he might very well reset Jon to being a kid again.
    Last edited by Vordan; 09-18-2019 at 03:57 PM.

  11. #41
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_of_Tomorrow View Post
    Dan is one of the men responsible for the best single status quo in the 90s which expanded the mythos and the cast with reign of supermen. Red and blue is something that just doesn't last, you see they weren't any lasting appeal or changes or expansion of mythos because of it. It was a fun side story. Jon and the marriage, I guess he deserves credit, but others expanded on his ideas better. Tomasi for example has a bigger influence on Jon that Jurgens.

    I have to say I think his golden age has passed and I never feel invested in his current stories. I was one of the few that thought his rebirth action comics was barebones storytelling.
    Oh, I just mention Red/Blue because it was a fairly lengthy status quo change, not because it had any permanence. I wouldn't expect Superman losing Clark would have any permanence, either - just like has the trunks back, he'll get Clark back too.

    I'd argue that few (if any) wrote the Super-marriage better than Dan, but the marriage was at least partly his idea and Jon was definitely his idea. Influence is fine and I'd agree that Tomasi had as much to do with Jon's personality as Jurgens, but you'd said "introduced new ideas," not "introduced and had total influence over" so that's what I went with.
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  12. #42
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    I buy the Jor-El resolution and am not totally invested in the context of it, nor can I really state with any degree of critique whether or not I think in the scheme of things "IT WORKS" in the sense of building on Superman's mythos or even just in recent-canon thematics and stuff.

    But I am curious to kind of write out / run out Jor-El's current timeline and see what to make of it. Now he's got all this canon PRE-KRYPTOCALYPSE as "Cosmic Conspirator" in addition to alarmist scientist, and POST-KRYPTOCALYPSE as Mister Oz for years. And POST-OZ because he wasn't just breaking out of Doctor Manhattan's lockbox and sitting around doing nothing, plus he might've time-traveled.
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  13. #43
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    I think what makes it stand out to me is that Jor-El was already killed off; at the end of the Mr. Oz storyline he's disintegrated by what's implied to be Dr. Manhatten. Then Bendis' Man of Steel mini starts and he's back with no explanation.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Iím looking forward to the President Superman plotline. For those of you who dislike Bendis, take heart in how he handled Jor-El: Once heís done with something he has no problem resetting things to the status quo. Once heís done with Legion and Jon, he might very well reset Jon to being a kid again.
    I worry it may be too late by then should that happen, a lot of Jon's fans have or are losing interest. My girlfriend was the biggest Super Sons fan I know (she gave the book out to friends/younger relatives) and she completely doesn't care about Jon anymore. At this point, I think Legion's the best bet to keep Jon around (despite my wishing that he was still a child).

  15. #45
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    It's funny that Bendis loves time travelling so much he is currently writing everything related to it in one form or another. Guess the 05 and Age of Ultron went to his head.

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