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  1. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Being very familiar with HiX-Man's previous works, I think the quality is as expected...but that's me comparing it to his previous works and not to that of other, previous X-writers.

    As a reader (since the 80's) who's been enjoying the DoX books...I am fully engaged. I am fully entertained. I feel for these characters and I remain fully invested in the stories HCo. is bringing to the table...because they are NOT the same types of stories/characters I became familiar (and eventually bored) with from decades of complacent, stale and rehashed storytelling. I am being forced to see these characters in a different light and I'm very happy with that.

    (Not) Taking those 'differences' I listed into account...the general arguments, against this new status-quo in general and HiX-Man specifically, I've read throughout these threads since HoX/PoX started, come down to two basics and obviously personal truths (in lieu of: "The story is crap. The writing is bad. The art is trash")

    1: These are not My X-Men/the X-Men I know/The (insert single character here) I love.
    2: These are not the kinds of stories involving My X-Men, I want to read.

    Some readers just cannot come to terms with those truths or with the idea that they have to now alter their personal visions of these stories and characters.
    And when looked at from that perspective, the fault(s) does not lie with the creatives.
    That's pretty much a universal factor of every fandom I've ever been a part of though, to be honest.

    It comes from a place of passion; we love these characters, we want to know what's going on with them on a more personal level and not at the extent of the plot, which feels like what's happened to some readers but yet seems to have just been dismissed under the banner of 'complaining.'

    I think you've over-simplified those grievances to be honest and, not to mention, left out one more important argument:

    3. The character's motivations aren't properly established outside of a meta-commentary which was only given a passing glance on the page.

    The only reaction we were given to Moira's idea was from Magneto, but he does not speak for all mutants. We don't have a reason for why Scott trusts Charles so absolutely, the reunification between the two, why Ororo has become so seemingly jaded. All we know is: Charles said so.

    And that's not enough for some fans like myself and it's a valid criticism. Another valid criticism is in the storytelling itself; actual emotion/reaction and introspection on the most important parts of these issues brought up hasn't been done on panel. We see it in data pages; however, those are not the character's reactions, nor thoughts, nor anything. That's just text: why are mutants happy to share their psychic energy with Krakoa, show us on panel and make us feel the same way, otherwise it can just come across as creepy depending on the reader's idea of it.

    And after so many years of reading such rich stories with such emotion and heart in them, where each voice was so distinct from the last and each character was given at least a moment to react to something, this just feels so sterile and clinical. Concept is one thing, but if you can't execute it with your characters and not around them, then you shouldn't be above critique for it.

  2. #167

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    Additionally, the argument of "It's interesting because it's new" doesn't convince me.

    I want it to; I understand the reasoning behind it, but I've yet to be convinced on panel outside of "Because Moira said so." Moira saw 9 futures, which for all we know could turn out to be as alternate as Bishop's or Cable's. She is one view point, though she's seen a lot. Unfortunately, I need a bit more than that to be sold on the matter, especially in a medium where seeing alternate universes/futures isn't that new to begin with.

    Literally, they could have jumped off of the end of Rosenberg's run "This vaccine is horrible, we don't feel safe!" Boom, done; leaves more room for character's introspection, reaction and motivation. Even gives more room for establishing the five! Jump back and forth between past and present if need be, there was absolutely no need to be so contriving about it!

    But I admit, that last part is a personal critique.

    TL;DR: I'm not convinced on why this new world is so amazing outside of just being 'told', not shown.

  3. #168
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    That's pretty much a universal factor of every fandom I've ever been a part of though, to be honest.

    It comes from a place of passion; we love these characters, we want to know what's going on with them on a more personal level and not at the extent of the plot, which feels like what's happened to some readers but yet seems to have just been dismissed under the banner of 'complaining.'

    I think you've over-simplified those grievances to be honest and, not to mention, left out one more important argument:

    3. The character's motivations aren't properly established outside of a meta-commentary which was only given a passing glance on the page.

    The only reaction we were given to Moira's idea was from Magneto, but he does not speak for all mutants. We don't have a reason for why Scott trusts Charles so absolutely, the reunification between the two, why Ororo has become so seemingly jaded. All we know is: Charles said so.

    And that's not enough for some fans like myself and it's a valid criticism. Another valid criticism is in the storytelling itself; actual emotion/reaction and introspection on the most important parts of these issues brought up hasn't been done on panel. We see it in data pages; however, those are not the character's reactions, nor thoughts, nor anything. That's just text: why are mutants happy to share their psychic energy with Krakoa, show us on panel and make us feel the same way, otherwise it can just come across as creepy depending on the reader's idea of it.

    And after so many years of reading such rich stories with such emotion and heart in them, where each voice was so distinct from the last and each character was given at least a moment to react to something, this just feels so sterile and clinical. Concept is one thing, but if you can't execute it with your characters and not around them, then you shouldn't be above critique for it.
    Well, clearly I and others see things entirely different.

    @ the bolded...the ending of HoX/PoX and the first issues of DoX aptly spells out what's driving these characters...it's not HiX-Man's fault that some readers/fans just can't let go of the distant past or come to terms with what's right in front their eyes.

    As for everything else...it's only the third issue of these books (which are diouble-shipped, mind you). How about practicing a bit of patience to see how it all unfolds.
    (I shudder to think what the current readers would have been like had they had to wait for one whole month before they got the next issue of Claremont's 'slow burn' stories where he hinted at plots and sub plots that took years to resolve and sometimes never did).
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 12-06-2019 at 11:42 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  4. #169
    Astonishing Member AHRNIHAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Additionally, the argument of "It's interesting because it's new" doesn't convince me.

    I want it to; I understand the reasoning behind it, but I've yet to be convinced on panel outside of "Because Moira said so." Moira saw 9 futures, which for all we know could turn out to be as alternate as Bishop's or Cable's. She is one view point, though she's seen a lot. Unfortunately, I need a bit more than that to be sold on the matter, especially in a medium where seeing alternate universes/futures isn't that new to begin with.

    Literally, they could have jumped off of the end of Rosenberg's run "This vaccine is horrible, we don't feel safe!" Boom, done; leaves more room for character's introspection, reaction and motivation. Even gives more room for establishing the five! Jump back and forth between past and present if need be, there was absolutely no need to be so contriving about it!

    But I admit, that last part is a personal critique.

    TL;DR: I'm not convinced on why this new world is so amazing outside of just being 'told', not shown.

    Says EVERYTHING.
    You obviously didn't read a shit about HoX/PoX.
    He is the rock that their island nation is built upon. The people of Krakoa know him and what he has done for them over the years, and they look up to him. He might not be RULING Krakoa, but he is definitely leading it.

  5. #170
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AHRNIHAL View Post
    Says EVERYTHING.
    You obviously didn't read a shit about HoX/PoX.
    9 is a small number near infinity possibilities au timelines

  6. #171
    Astonishing Member AHRNIHAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    9 is a small number near infinity possibilities au timelines
    You are missing the point where the poster said "Mora saw 9 futures"
    He is the rock that their island nation is built upon. The people of Krakoa know him and what he has done for them over the years, and they look up to him. He might not be RULING Krakoa, but he is definitely leading it.

  7. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Well, clearly I and others see things entirely different.

    @ the bolded...the ending of HoX/PoX and the first issues of DoX aptly spells out what's driving these characters...it's not HiX-Man's fault that some readers/fans just can't let go of the distant past or come to terms with what's right in front their eyes.

    As for everything else...it's only the third issue of these books (which are diouble-shipped, mind you). How about practicing a bit of patience to see how it all unfolds.
    (I shudder to think what the current readers would have been like had they had to wait for one whole month before they got the next issue of Claremont's 'slow burn' stories where he hinted at plots and sub plots that took years to resolve and sometimes never did).
    He wrote about what's driving a small handful of characters and not in relation to what's happened nor happening. Not outside of a data page and not on panel. That's the key factor here; data pages are not a substitute for action reactions.

    Patience is one thing; but at least with Claremont's stories they were engaging on an emotional level. These? These are an absolute slog.

  8. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHRNIHAL View Post
    Says EVERYTHING.
    You obviously didn't read a shit about HoX/PoX.
    Oh? Elaborate please, I don't see what you mean.

  9. #174
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Additionally, the argument of "It's interesting because it's new" doesn't convince me.

    I want it to; I understand the reasoning behind it, but I've yet to be convinced on panel outside of "Because Moira said so." Moira saw 9 futures, which for all we know could turn out to be as alternate as Bishop's or Cable's. She is one view point, though she's seen a lot. Unfortunately, I need a bit more than that to be sold on the matter, especially in a medium where seeing alternate universes/futures isn't that new to begin with.

    Literally, they could have jumped off of the end of Rosenberg's run "This vaccine is horrible, we don't feel safe!" Boom, done; leaves more room for character's introspection, reaction and motivation. Even gives more room for establishing the five! Jump back and forth between past and present if need be, there was absolutely no need to be so contriving about it!

    But I admit, that last part is a personal critique.

    TL;DR: I'm not convinced on why this new world is so amazing outside of just being 'told', not shown.
    It's clearly not about trying to convince you and others of anything.
    It's quite simply a matter of personal perspective which is quite separate from the art and the artist's intent and the critique there-of.
    The reasons why you and I both feel the way we do about these X-books are quite valid...

    it's like:
    Two people are viewing a Jackson Pollock.
    One sees and feels the grandeur of the cosmos and...is awed. (Or not)
    One sees only pretty paint drops and...is awed. (Or not)
    Those two vastly differing perspectives is not because "the art was bad and the artist can't paint"
    They stem from the viewers' understanding and expectation of what's in front of them.

    For those not in "awe", the trick is to recognise that the work does not speak to you/interest you; come to terms with that and move on the next gallery instead of standing there blaming the artist for your personal sense of disappointment.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  10. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    It's clearly not about trying to convince you and others of anything.
    It's quite simply a matter of personal perspective which is quite separate from the art and the artist's intent.
    The reasons why you and I both feel the way we do about these X-books are quite valid...

    it's like:
    Two people are viewing a Jaskson Pollock.
    One sees and feels the grandeur of the cosmos and...is awed. (Or not)
    One sees only pretty paint drops and...is awed. (Or not)
    Those two vastly differing perspectives is not because "the art was bad and the artist can't paint"
    They stem from the viewers' understanding and expectation of what's in front of them.

    For those not in "awe", the trick is to recognise that the work does not speak to you/interest you; come to terms with that and move on the next gallery instead of standing there blaming the artist for your personal sense of disappointment.
    That's a very different analogy to what's going on here. You're talking about fans of characters who adore them; you think that's easy to just let go?

    Lemme ask this, when the teen O5 were here, did people who hated them take this advice? At all? Because whenever I glanced at these forums during that time it was just filled with bile and anger for them, and not even constructively from what I saw. Did you preach this during that era too? Or in Rosenberg's? Or when, as you've said, when you bored with the same old stories being re-hashed?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 12-06-2019 at 12:18 PM.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    That's a very different analogy to what's going on here. You're talking about fans of characters who adore them; you think that's easy to just let go?

    Lemme ask this, when the teen O5 were here, did people who hated them take this advice? At all? Because whenever I glanced at these forums during that time it was just filled with bile and anger for them, and not even constructively from what I saw. Did you preach this during that era too? Or in Rosenberg's? Or when, as you've said, when you bored with the same old stories being re-hashed?
    Of course it's not easy to let go. But that doesn't mean that you CAN'T let go. Or change your perspective.
    However, whether you do so or not is entirely up to YOU.

    And no I did not 'preach' that during the last decade of stories because I had no interest in those stories or rather, they did not interest me to that extent.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  12. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Of course it's not easy to let go. But that doesn't mean that you CAN'T let go. Or change your perspective.
    However, whether you do so or not is entirely up to YOU.

    And no I did not 'preach' that during the last decade of stories because I had no interest in those stories or rather, they did not interest me to that extent.
    You underestimate the hold of autistic fixation; it isn't quite so simple to just 'go.' Not when you get so involved in these characters worlds.

    Well maybe you should've.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    You underestimate the hold of autistic fixation; it isn't quite so simple to just 'go.' Not when you get so involved in these characters worlds.

    Well maybe you should've.
    I've been there...I know the "hold" of which you speak (it wasn't easy to give up the X-Men when Fraction and the Dodsons came on)...But I also knew I could let go, I could move away. I could move on. Especially if staying hampered my joy. So I did.

    Why would I?
    I'm not here to preach or to convince...just to offer a different perspective towards a broader understanding.
    What others do with that, is again, entirely up to them, and is of absolutely no concern of mine.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  14. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I've been there...I know the "hold" of which you speak (it wasn't easy to give up the X-Men when Fraction and the Dodsons came on)...But I also knew I could let go, I could move away. I could move on. Especially if staying hampered my joy. So I did.

    Why would I?
    I'm not here to preach or to convince...just to offer a different perspective towards a broader understanding.
    What others do with that, is again, entirely up to them, and is of absolutely no concern of mine.
    I'm invested in at least three titles from this run for the characters alone; if they go, I go, but until then it's not happening. I'm a part of this; I'm glad to see aspects of it being addressed in those comics, however, considering X-Men is the flagship I'd expect more. Is that unreasonable?

    Well I've obviously misread your intent, because that's what it came across like. I'm sorry if I've offended you at all, but hey, it is what it is. You offer your perspectives and I offer mine; we should be trying to understand where each other are coming from rather than saying "You're wrong!" "No you're wrong!" and then all grouping up to yell at each other. But hey, it's the internet.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I'm invested in at least three titles from this run for the characters alone; if they go, I go, but until then it's not happening. I'm a part of this; I'm glad to see aspects of it being addressed in those comics, however, considering X-Men is the flagship I'd expect more. Is that unreasonable?

    Well I've obviously misread your intent, because that's what it came across like. I'm sorry if I've offended you at all, but hey, it is what it is. You offer your perspectives and I offer mine; we should be trying to understand where each other are coming from rather than saying "You're wrong!" "No you're wrong!" and then all grouping up to yell at each other. But hey, it's the internet.
    Of course it's not unreasonable. As X-fans we all come into this with certain expectations.
    What's unreasonable is not having your expectations met...but still hoping that they will be, when you know (by the reasons you give yourself) they won't ever be.

    No offense taken, at all.
    I admit, I don't ever interact with the "haterz" in general because they don't offer any substance for their hate.
    You are one of the few who do bring something to the discussion...so I am happy to engage.
    And to be clear, I do clearly understand your perspective and respect it. What I'm putting forth is just another option. That's all. No judgement from me.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

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