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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I was with and going to say "There's different administrations and different writers who understand characters do different degrees" its been a long while but they seem to get batman "the most" and "the most consistently"

    I also think there's a bit of a problem with superman and his universal appeal... and How he seems to comic readers who aren't 30+... He's just not their hero.

    There's no more evolution to be had with this guy. He's Dad. He's dad and ... he's there to tell everyone that they're wrong, and that they need to be more like him.
    Or he'll spank you ... and believe me he can.

    He's not Saitama, nor Goku in appeal anymore and I often wrack my brain trying to figure that out but I boil it down to he's not that fun? Not sure. but d.c. has trouble bridging that gap.

    Meanwhile... this...



    Thats... kinda uncool.

    MOVING ON!

    I don't agree about, Grayson... I think the batman beyond is cartoon was a good comparative example of how it could easily be a thing, but Nitewing the brand really isn't bright and shiny even if his personality is.

    Aside from that... to some undetermined large amount of people. . .

    Sidekicks live in the shadows of their mentors.... and they OWE as a metaphor (a percentage of all their proceeds to their mentor.)

    No matter WHAT Nitewing does... he's partially owned by batman and so his successes are batmans successes. Leading us to still say "DC only cares about batman"

    ---------

    That being said. . . I think D.C. really cared about Constantine and If Im completely honest they likely cared about every property that ALMOST
    broke through to be HUGE. Ryan Reynolds green lantern could have been deadpool "IF", but it wasn't.

    I'm suuuure they'd like to have more billion dollar franchise players.


    They DEFINITELY care ... but BATMAN keeps the lights on.

    Period. Even his spin offs keep the lights on.
    Goku is a father. Hell, Batman is a father ten times over Superman and how you described Superman is actually much closer to how Batman is written much of the time.

  2. #32
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    DOES DC ONLY CARE ABOUT BATMAN?
    Unquestionably, no. What they do understand is sales, however. Batman has been DC's king for 30 years now, so the focus is going to be on him more than the others. But if other comics not featuring Bruce started selling as well or even more than Bats, you can bet your bottom dollar that DC would push that character or team much harder than they do at present.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  3. #33
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Goku is a father. Hell, Batman is a father ten times over Superman and how you described Superman is actually much closer to how Batman is written much of the time.
    Goku isn't a father. He is a fighter and martial artist. Those aren't mutually exclusive but here it is.
    And Piccolo would like a word with you.
    As for superman, i agree with him.clark is a dad. And he isn't much of a fun dad either. We have never seen him have fun with jon(except for that issue in jl). It's always teaching, mentoring,preaching.. Etc.we need more fun superman.
    We need more this:


    As for saitama, he is hero for fun. Ofcourse he is awesome. And nobody complains about his powerlevel as well because it is his whole gimmick.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-20-2019 at 06:33 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Goku isn't a father. He is a fighter and martial artist. Those aren't mutually exclusive but here it is.
    And Piccolo would like a word with you.
    As for superman, i agree with him.clark is a dad. And he isn't much of a fun dad either. We have never seen him have fun with jon(except for that issue in jl). It's always teaching, mentoring,preaching.. Etc.we need more fun superman.
    We need more this:


    As for saitama, he is hero for fun. Ofcourse he is awesome. And nobody complains about his powerlevel as well because it is his whole gimmick.
    None of this remotely refutes what I said. And I didn't mention Saitama at all nor his power level.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    There's no more evolution to be had with this guy. He's Dad. He's dad and ... he's there to tell everyone that they're wrong, and that they need to be more like him.
    Or he'll spank you ... and believe me he can.
    You do realize you could say the exact same thing about Captain America, right? And yet, people love him. I also don't see a lot of people who just downright don't like Superman. Apathetic? Maybe. Belief that Batman is cooler? Maybe. But not a lot of people just downright hate Superman. Most people I see are accepting of Superman. A lot of people I know actually think Superman is awesome. Either way, he's iconic.

    But to bring it back to the Superman/Captain America comparison for a second. The only significant difference between the two franchises is that one recently had a super successful movie trilogy, while the other had a super successful slate of movies...back in the 70s and 80s. That's pretty much it. Before the MCU, I'd actually say most people might not have even known who Captain America was. I know most people didn't know who Iron Man was before 2008.

    So, People aren't averse to Superman because he's Superman. They just need to be reminded of how awesome he is. Blockbuster movies tend to help with that. Hopefully J.J. Abrams can bring some of the magic he brought to Star Wars to a new Superman movie (maybe even a sequel to Man of Steel).

    He's not Saitama, nor Goku in appeal anymore and I often wrack my brain trying to figure that out but I boil it down to he's not that fun? Not sure. but d.c. has trouble bridging that gap.
    I mean, is Goku really all that appealing anymore?? I know DBZ was huge in the 90s. Hell, I was a DBZ kid. But, I wouldn't say its anywhere near the same cultural significance nowadays.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    None of this remotely refutes what I said. And I didn't mention Saitama at all nor his power level.
    It was never meant to. I was just saying goku isn't much of a father. He never was. People never watch db for goku the father

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, is Goku really all that appealing anymore?? I know DBZ was huge in the 90s. Hell, I was a DBZ kid. But, I wouldn't say its anywhere near the same cultural significance nowadays.
    Dragon ball super broly made $114,102,821 world wide. Highest grossing anime movie of the franchise. Super is very popular.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Superman definitely has stopped being fun
    So has Batman but Batman is a deeply flawed character so it works in his favor
    That's a lot of characters problems currently. Their powers used to be cool and were explored in relatable ways that showed you deep down they were just like anyone else. Now they are just "gods" and the iconic image they display(or what they represent) has taken over for a lot of them showing personality(Wonder Woman looking at you).


    Supes has sort of turned into this boring god type figure that creates a wall between a lot of new fans that might like him. Its not helped by snyder and other directors reinforcing that image in the public consciousness or even in some cases his own fans saying his symbol is evoking a messianic figure.

    Look over at Marvel Thor should have the same problem but Marvel knows how to write their characters very well. They heap tons of flaws and problems onto their characters and never try to let a faded image or perception carry the story.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Superman definitely has stopped being fun
    So has Batman but Batman is a deeply flawed character so it works in his favor
    That's a lot of characters problems currently. Their powers used to be cool and were explored in relatable ways that showed you deep down they were just like anyone else. Now they are just "gods" and the iconic image they display(or what they represent) has taken over for a lot of them showing personality(Wonder Woman looking at you).


    Supes has sort of turned into this boring god type figure that creates a wall between a lot of new fans that might like him. Its not helped by snyder and other directors reinforcing that image in the public consciousness or even in some cases his own fans saying his symbol is evoking a messianic figure.

    Look over at Marvel Thor should have the same problem but Marvel knows how to write their characters very well. They heap tons of flaws and problems onto their characters and never try to let a faded image or perception carry the story.
    You and I have been reading very different versions of Wonder Woman.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You and I have been reading very different versions of Wonder Woman.
    She's truly like the boring perfect mom of superheroes

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    You do realize you could say the exact same thing about Captain America, right? And yet, people love him. I also don't see a lot of people who just downright don't like Superman. Apathetic? Maybe. Belief that Batman is cooler? Maybe. But not a lot of people just downright hate Superman. Most people I see are accepting of Superman. A lot of people I know actually think Superman is awesome. Either way, he's iconic.

    But to bring it back to the Superman/Captain America comparison for a second. The only significant difference between the two franchises is that one recently had a super successful movie trilogy, while the other had a super successful slate of movies...back in the 70s and 80s. That's pretty much it. Before the MCU, I'd actually say most people might not have even known who Captain America was. I know most people didn't know who Iron Man was before 2008.

    So, People aren't averse to Superman because he's Superman. They just need to be reminded of how awesome he is. Blockbuster movies tend to help with that. Hopefully J.J. Abrams can bring some of the magic he brought to Star Wars to a new Superman movie (maybe even a sequel to Man of Steel).
    Cap has never had a full blown continuity reboot in the comics or as big of an other media appearance as the Christopher Reeve film though. Both of which did what they needed to do for Superman at the time, but the perceptions they created have run their course and are actively bogging him down. Cap and Clark aren't completely similar characters, and Cap (as a soldier) is allowed to have more of an edge than Superman is perceived as being allowed to. Not much of one, but still. DC needs to break the perception of vanilla Superman, but they never seem to be able to do it because they don't understand much that isn't Batman, and they cannot do it without tossing other stuff away. The above scan of early New 52 Superman is the revamp the character needs to be made relevant again; the problem is DC attached it to a poorly planned reboot instead of making it work in the pre-Flashpoint continuity (as say a re-tooled origin), ditching a lot of stuff people liked in the process. Then they snapped back to what was essentially post-Crisis Superman, a take that is older than a lot of us on this forum and they cannot depend on the older fans forever, with the addition of a son. Which has run into divisive problems of its own. Meanwhile, MOS tried to shake the perception of Reeve, but went a bit overboard and was flawed in its execution, with weak follow ups that squandered any potential it may have had.

    He needs a big other media appearance that shatters the perceptions of Reeve and the MOS reboot that have hung around the character's neck like chains, but still retains the core appeal. He's crazy powerful and fun, has a bit of an edge but is nowhere close to grim anti-hero status, stands up for the little guy against bullies and the corrupt, and does and sees the craziest/weirdest shit out of any superhero. None of it precludes him aging past 35 and being married and having a kid either. But we need to ditch boring ass naive farmboy and his boring ass life. Reminding people how awesome he is isn't going to cut it completely, if it's just what an older generation perceives as awesome.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    She's truly like the boring perfect mom of superheroes
    A highly oversimplified and inaccurate take.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Cap has never had a full blown continuity reboot in the comics or as big of an other media appearance as the Christopher Reeve film though. Both of which did what they needed to do for Superman at the time, but the perceptions they created have run their course and are actively bogging him down. Cap and Clark aren't completely similar characters, and Cap (as a soldier) is allowed to have more of an edge than Superman is perceived as being allowed to. Not much of one, but still. DC needs to break the perception of vanilla Superman, but they never seem to be able to do it because they don't understand much that isn't Batman, and they cannot do it without tossing other stuff away. The above scan of early New 52 Superman is the revamp the character needs to be made relevant again; the problem is DC attached it to a poorly planned reboot instead of making it work in the pre-Flashpoint continuity (as say a re-tooled origin), ditching a lot of stuff people liked in the process. Then they snapped back to what was essentially post-Crisis Superman, a take that is older than a lot of us on this forum and they cannot depend on the older fans forever, with the addition of a son. Which has run into divisive problems of its own. Meanwhile, MOS tried to shake the perception of Reeve, but went a bit overboard and was flawed in its execution, with weak follow ups that squandered any potential it may have had.
    I honestly think you're attacking the wrong things. The 80s Byrne relaunch and the Reeve interpretation are not the things that bog down Superman. In fact, I'd say that the memory of the Reeve Superman movies is what has probably kept Superman alive in the public consciousness. It can't be underestimated how much people loved those movies back in the day. And honestly, those movies, even with the campy elements and bad special effects, still hold up...if only because of the quality of the acting.

    And I disagree wholeheartedly about Captain America being given more of an edge than Superman. If he has, I haven't seen it. Cap and Superman aren't the same character, obviously, but they're what I'd call kindred spirits. They both have aspirational and altruistic beliefs at their very core. They believe in standing up for the little guy, but they also have a code of conduct and lines they won't cross. They are hope personified, not anarchy. They're defenders of the oppressed, but they don't become bullies themselves in the process. The only thing that is done differently between the two of them is that the MCU respects who Steve is and gives him the room to be that.

    So no, the New 52 Superman is NOT the revamp the character needed. If anything, the New 52 Superman was derided (and rightfully so) as being incredily out of character for Superman. The world needs a Superman like the one we saw in Action 775, not a psyhcopath who dangles people off of buildings.

    So, I guess in sum, did you ever consider that the perception of Superman you think is weighing him down isn't what's actually weighing him down? If anything weighs Superman down, its DC's constant belief that they HAVE to reinvent him to make him relevant, instead of just embracing who he is. I think the title of Action 775 actually said it best: What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

    He needs a big other media appearance that shatters the perceptions of Reeve and the MOS reboot that have hung around the character's neck like chains, but still retains the core appeal. He's crazy powerful and fun, has a bit of an edge but is nowhere close to grim anti-hero status, stands up for the little guy against bullies and the corrupt, and does and sees the craziest/weirdest shit out of any superhero. None of it precludes him aging past 35 and being married and having a kid either. But we need to ditch boring ass naive farmboy and his boring ass life. Reminding people how awesome he is isn't going to cut it completely, if it's just what an older generation perceives as awesome.
    When has Superman ever been portrayed as naive? Also, I'd say being a star reporter married to another star reporter and having a superpowered son is really anything but boring. Hell, if Greg Rucka is able to take Lois Lane and craft a narrative that is not just an entertaining read, but probably one of the best books out right now, then I don't know how anyone can say Superman's home life is boring.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 09-20-2019 at 11:27 AM.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I honestly think you're attacking the wrong things. The 80s Byrne relaunch and the Reeve interpretation are not the things that bog down Superman. In fact, I'd say that the memory of the Reeve Superman movies is what has probably kept Superman alive in the public consciousness. It can't be underestimated how much people loved those movies back in the day. And honestly, those movies, even with the campy elements and bad special effects, still hold up...if only because of the quality of the acting.
    they are beloved as products of their era, but still perceived as out of date. Love for the nostalgia of those movies is what is keeping Superman in the public consciousness, but it is a mistake to depend on that forever, and everyone is really hankering for a classic MODERN movie that remains true to the spirit of the character while being relevant to modern times. Modern generations can love an older generation's Superman, but they still want a good one as their own, and they can never seem to get one on the big screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And I disagree wholeheartedly about Captain America being given more of an edge than Superman. If he has, I haven't seen it. Cap and Superman aren't the same character, obviously, but they're what I'd call kindred spirits. They both have aspirational and altruistic beliefs at their very core. They believe in standing up for the little guy, but they also have a code of conduct and lines they won't cross. They are hope personified, not anarchy.
    Cap engaged in pretty brutal, very well choreographed fight scenes and as a solider has taken a few lives and has a movie dealing with modern relevant subjects. That's about as edgy as he gets, and it isn't even that much. I'm not asking for Superman to even go that far as killing anyone, even though there was nothing morally wrong with what he did in MOS, it's generally not what people want with the character. But he doesn't take any bullshit either and the immigrant/social justice angle is just as relevant now as it ever has been, if not more so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So no, the New 52 Superman is NOT the revamp the character needed. If anything, the New 52 Superman was derided (and rightfully so) as being incredily out of character for Superman. The world needs a Superman like the one we saw in Action 775, not a psyhcopath who dangles people off of buildings.
    It's usually regarded as OOC by people who don't know much about the wider history of the character, or only accept in character-ness from one version that is 30+ years old. And was neither the first nor the last.
    Also not a psychopath, he did worse stuff in the Golden Age. Some have even perceived his actions in Action 775 as being arrogant and psychopathic. And new 52 Superman wasn't going to kill anyone either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So, I guess in sum, did you ever consider that the perception of Superman you think is weighing him down isn't what's actually weighing him down? If anything weighs Superman down, its DC's constant belief that they HAVE to reinvent him to make him relevant, instead of just embracing who he is. I think the title of Action 775 actually said it best: What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?
    Of course he needs to get re-invented every once and a while, no character would last as long as he did if he didn't get shake ups. They can't rely only on the old farts who loved him from childhood, they need to make him relevant to a new generation. They did that repeatedly with Batman and the Marvel heroes. They always go back to the core idea and put a twist on it or update it for the times. Farm boy with a mostly normal idealic childhood who stands in front of an American flag and eats apple pie just may not cut it anymore. DC's problem is they don't know how to go about updating him. A topical film similar to the New 52 run with a charismatic Superman who was ballsy and toppled the corrupt, without going into dour territory or truly bleak subject matter, would crush it at the box office if it was well made. People say they want a safe, bright Superman but I don't think they do. Not on it's own anyway, they want classic mixed with new that still feels true to the character. The other extreme is the DCEU thus far, and they definitely don't want that either.

    And that reinvention would be attached to the core of the character. It didn't come out of nowhere, that character existed loooooong before Byrne got ahold of him. Time to let move from what were essentially average Marvel comics from the 80s that happened to have Superman in them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    When has Superman ever been portrayed as naive? Also, I'd say being a star reporter married to another star reporter and having a superpowered son is really anything but boring. Hell, if Greg Rucka is able to take Lois Lane and craft a narrative that is not just an entertaining read, but probably one of the best books out right now, then I don't know how anyone can say Superman's home life is boring.
    Any time he's around Batman, pretty much. it didn't happenen within the issues themselves, but the solicits for King's bromance two parter described him as a naive farmboy.
    I was talking more about his family life pre-Metropolis. We're back to him having never met the Legion before. Whoopee.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    I don't know who was responsible for Justice League Action cartoon, but Superman was a lot of fun in that show. He has some very funny scenes.

    And Superman is not the guy to tell you how wrong you are or how you should be like him.. He leads with example. And he is humble and kind.


    Also, Smallville was a goldmine for DC (if they got any $ from it) and WB TV division. That show lasted so long because it was very successful with its audience (which was bigger than the new DC TV shows), and sold huge in home media. Go look at the numbers. Lois and Clark was also seen by many milions of households. So to say DC don't care about other heroes besides Batman is a bit exaggerated.

    Superman really needs a more successful live action film series, though. I think that will help him a lot and his appeal in general.

    I'm still overall happy other heroes like Wonder Woman and Aquaman got successful and awesome films with mass appeal because that shows other DC characters can be big than DC and WB think. The MCU also shows that and how incompetent WB can be when it comes to the DCU.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-20-2019 at 11:39 AM.

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