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  1. #1336
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm just confused as to how having your own country where your safe isn't coexisting especially when your trading with the rest of the world. I guess every country needs to open their borders and fire all immigration agents right now so we can all coexist because right now something is missing. Why can't I see and touch Russia nukes. Why isn't America just letting everybody in. Why aren't we coexisting.
    if Russia had vetoed this they wouldn’t be a nation, so technically they are an illegal nation.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  2. #1337
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT View Post
    In two of Moira's past life Apocalypse was not the bad guy. Well maybe he was the first time she joined him. XD. Regardless he has shown to work along side her and even have a sense of honor and duty in her 9th life. He is not the enemy of mutant kind. The humans tho...
    I doubt very much that is true. Just because he was with Moira doesn’t mean he wasn’t the bad guy. Just that Moira was an ally. Apocalypse almost certainly still believed in the survival of the strongest. I don’t know how apparent it is to everyone that this is not how evolution works. That ‘fittest’ meant ‘best fit’ and not stronger or faster or better in some tangible way.

    Apocalypse is insane. He believes in a dogmatic and scientifically incorrect ideal that is dangerous and encourages subjugation and extermination.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-20-2019 at 06:38 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #1338

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I doubt very much that is true. Just because he was with Moira doesn’t mean he wasn’t the bad guy. Just that Moira was an ally. Apocalypse almost certainly still believed in the survival of the strongest. I don’t know how apparent it is to everyone how that is not how evolution works. That ‘fittest’ meant ‘best fit’ and not stronger or faster or better in some tangible way. Apocalypse is insane.
    Yes... being a computer geek that cant lift weights hunt or win a fight is more "fit" in our society
    In the real world i would be BOTH pro registration and Pro mutant rights. Xavier and Trask were both right.

  4. #1339
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm just confused as to how having your own country where your safe isn't coexisting especially when your trading with the rest of the world. I guess every country needs to open their borders and fire all immigration agents right now so we can all coexist because right now something is missing. Why can't I see and touch Russia nukes. Why isn't America just letting everybody in. Why aren't we coexisting.
    Sapiens are not tolerated on Krakoa "Man is not welcome there" as Magneto said.
    They can't be on the main island, and they can't travel throughout the flower network without the presence of at least one mutant alongside them.
    I'm not even sure they are tolerated in the Habitats dispersed around the world.
    Right now, the mutants are living with their own kind in an insular environnement. There is zero coexistence at play between them and sapiens. They are interacting with them only at the UN during their negociations, that's not what one would call "coexisting".
    They aren't the only country to not allow foreigners to travel or live on their lands, but let's not pretend that Xavier's dream is at play on that island right now, it's not.
    As for the idea that everyone should stay in their own country, that's not a rhetoric the X-men should be associating themselves with. Or is Krakoa really MagnetoLand already?
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  5. #1340
    Fantastic Member FIGHT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Apocalypse is insane.

  6. #1341
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Sapiens are not tolerated on Krakoa "Man is not welcome there" as Magneto said.
    They can't be on the main island, and they can't travel throughout the flower network without the presence of at least one mutant alongside them.
    I'm not even sure they are tolerated in the Habitats dispersed around the world.
    Right now, the mutants are living with their own kind in an insular environnement. There is zero coexistence at play between them and sapiens. They are interacting with them only at the UN during their negociations, that's not what one would call "coexisting".
    They aren't the only country to not allow foreigners to travel or live on their lands, but let's not pretend that Xavier's dream is at play on that island right now, it's not.
    As for the idea that everyone should stay in their own country, that's not a rhetoric the X-men should be associating themselves with. Or is Krakoa really MagnetoLand already?
    Then why isn't America letting in the bad hombres or certain people from certain brown countries. Why even have borders. Why can't we all just live as one. Why aren't we letting in the refugees. Let everyone everywhere have open borders.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  7. #1342
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    if Russia had vetoed this they wouldn’t be a nation, so technically they are an illegal nation.
    They abstained so it is legal. People abstain all the time. If the dirt on her was so deep that she felt the need to stay quiet and go against her own beliefs that's on her. People dig up first on people and use it for political gain all the time we just don't know the details. Is Trump kit the real president because russians influenced the elections and Hillary got more votes? Doesn't seem to be the case.
    Last edited by jwatson; 09-20-2019 at 06:56 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  8. #1343
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    If Scarlet Witch was still a mutant, would she be welcome on Krakoa?
    Yes, but mainly because she would still be Magneto's daughter. Which funny enough thinking about it makes me glad they she is not his kid anymore, Magneto should be happy about that too.

  9. #1344
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    If Scarlet Witch was still a mutant, would she be welcome on Krakoa?
    That's an interesting question. Imagine the reaction if the last page had been Xavier shaking hands with Scarlet Witch rather than Apocalypse. Some fans would be going bonkers.

    But how is Apocalypse any better? Pretty sure he's been much worse than Scarlet Witch given the length of his life and his particular ethos. I suppose we could infer that mutant lives are more important than others? But Apocalypse has shown in the past that he ultimately doesn't favor mutants over humans or other beings, so I'm not sure that's correct.

    The fact that people don't see that last page as a clear sign that something is incredibly flawed with this is surprising.

    Not that I'm complaining about what happened.....I love it. I just recognize that a lot of what we are being shown is incredibly troublesome.

  10. #1345
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I doubt very much that is true. Just because he was with Moira doesn’t mean he wasn’t the bad guy. Just that Moira was an ally. Apocalypse almost certainly still believed in the survival of the strongest. I don’t know how apparent it is to everyone that this is not how evolution works. That ‘fittest’ meant ‘best fit’ and not stronger or faster or better in some tangible way.

    Apocalypse is insane. He believes in a dogmatic and scientifically incorrect ideal that is dangerous and encourages subjugation and extermination.
    He's essentially a "might makes right" type of guy rather than "survival of the fittest". He's always going on about "only the strong survive" and all that.

    I think the character has great potential, and when used well, he's quite compelling. I like his usage in this series so far. I really just wish they'd change his look a bit.

  11. #1346
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    They abstained so it is legal. People abstain all the time. If the dirt on her was so deep that she felt the need to stay quiet and go against her own beliefs that's on her. People dig up first on people and use it for political gain all the time we just don't know the details. Is Trump kit the real president because russians influenced the elections and Hillary got more votes? Doesn't seem to be the case.
    They abstained due to illegal influence. We certainly understand why Emma did what she did....but is it right to do so? That's the question.

    On the one hand, I can see how people would say yes, it is right. The situation is important enough to resort to such a tactic to ensure this victory for the mutants, who have had it incredibly tough so far.

    On the other hand, I can see how people would say no, it is not right. Taking such an action serves to advocate for all instances of such an action. It basically condones every instance of bribery or coercion where someone uses their power to influence things to their benefit.

    It really boils down to this: do the ends justify the means?

    There's no simple answer to that question, really. But that's the question.

  12. #1347
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    I wonder how this will affect the Captain America title since Selene is causing trouble over there.

  13. #1348
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    I read the arguments and I can't help but visualize the division of opinions on how the X-Men are like THIS TIME as...
    Attachment 87322
    Yes, I just cropped this image from the memetic source, but this is how I feel now whenever I read the commentary on the Krakoan X-Men. My mind loves to exaggerate and I have to exert effort to tone it down.
    It boils down to whether people believe the end justifie the means… or not.
    I don't.
    Still, a pretty fun representation of this warzone of a thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    ... ... ...

    She tried to eat the souls of the ENTIRE world, mutants first!
    Makes no sense, right? Morally speaking, that is.
    Well, this sounds like tribalism pushed to the extreme "he/she's one of our own, therefore he/she gets a pass even if it's the last kind of monster to walk the Earth".

    Quote Originally Posted by Chessboxer View Post
    I think Hickman set the stage for this turn with Moiras' lives. Xavier/Magneto literally had 9 lives of Mutant failure downloaded into their minds and the futility of Mutant passivity/assimilation. The last page in HOX#4 with the letters "NO MORE" plastered everywhere showing the decimation of the mutants set the stage.
    He could. I'm still baffled to see that Xavier is the one to bury alive his own vision… without blinking.
    He totally bought into Moira's epiphany.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  14. #1349
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    They abstained due to illegal influence. We certainly understand why Emma did what she did....but is it right to do so? That's the question.

    On the one hand, I can see how people would say yes, it is right. The situation is important enough to resort to such a tactic to ensure this victory for the mutants, who have had it incredibly tough so far.

    On the other hand, I can see how people would say no, it is not right. Taking such an action serves to advocate for all instances of such an action. It basically condones every instance of bribery or coercion where someone uses their power to influence things to their benefit.

    It really boils down to this: do the ends justify the means?

    There's no simple answer to that question, really. But that's the question.
    Imo it does. She did what every other politician does when they have access to dirt on someone. Is it right? No do I personally feel it's for the greater good? Yes.

    Slave owners would say it was wrong to steal their property and whisknthem up North but people against slavery would say owning other people is wrong.
    Last edited by jwatson; 09-20-2019 at 07:23 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  15. #1350
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    It boils down to whether people believe the end justifie the means… or not.
    This statement of yours has a point, though it also trouble me as following that train of thought, the X-Men are Lelouche Lamperouge and those who disagree with their Moira X-inspired direction (both in-universe and out, like me) are Suzaku Kururugi. And I dislike Suzaku.

    Look at us, Hickman! You're setting the readership against each other's throats!

    He could. I'm still baffled to see that Xavier is the one to bury alive his own vision… without blinking.
    He totally bought into Moira's epiphany.
    This here. It makes me feel like the current X-Men run has been tailored for readers with misanthropic opinions. That 11th life of Moira's better be a reset button for future creative teams.
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    (Please return to the Academy setting before I turn 47...)

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