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  1. #1801
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Yeah I’m aware of that. I was making a joke that parades are inherently at least a little bit gay.
    Well..........points were made.

    Sure, I get that. But I don’t think that’s always the case. It’s not always “oh if you can have an exclusive club than so should we even though most clubs default to being excluaive to us”. Sometimes it’s just “why do we need to have exclusive clubs?”

    I agree that question can come from a place of ignorance, but I don’t think it always does. Sometimes I think when we talk about progress in this way, that question is eventually going to come up.
    Oh, in that case I do get that. But I think the sort of progress in terms of equality still won’t be balanced out enough. And imagine if we’ve fully integrated/gone “colorblind” only for the nation to still have ingrained racism/misogynoir/transphobia in its system. It would totally be an “egg on the face” situation and especially in the case of the mutants, I don’t think it’s time for that sort of integration yet. I always like using the equality vs equity scenario.



    Though, if we do get into taking away the “exclusive clubs” then a lot of people are gonna be surprised at how much is stripped away from society, both good and bad.


    Perhaps. But clearly not everything they’re doing is heroic. I don’t see how that’s even a point of contention. Mr. Sinister is responsible for some real horrible stuff. Even if we just limit it to the Morlock Massacre....it’s awful. Working with a person like that and granting amnesty to him and his minions who actually carried out the slaughter is in no way heroic.

    I think some of the other things shown in the series have been heroic. Destroying the Mother Mold....creating a haven for mutants. Those are great.

    But there are also unheroic things, and those are what people are questioning. Sabertooth killing innocent men on a mission for Krakoa. Amnesty for the likes of Emplate and Apocalypse. Mentally influencing the Russian delegate.

    Do those things somehow cancel out the good that’s being done? I don’t know if there’s an answer to that. Not a single answer, anyway. I think this story is meant to make us ask those kinds of tough to answer questions. I don’t think that we can simply label anyone who might consider different answers than we do as being “anti-mutant” or anything like that.
    I guess my problem doesn’t stem from the X-Men not being “heroic” but people who then either automatically conflate that with “villainy” as if there are no shades of grey or write off everything they are doing because they aren’t being textbook superheroes. The amnesty thing is easily the most controversial move they’ve pulled. I don’t think that means the X-Men will stop fighting for a world that hates and fears them, just now they are looking out for their own first and foremost and that bothers a lot of people.

    There was a discussion not too long ago on here about the importance of the X-Men being “mutants first, heroes second” which got a lot of flack. But I think it makes perfect sense. That is a community that is being targeted against and brutalized by the world, so why would they rush out to kick MODOK’s ass when their family are getting experimented on by O.N.E.? So the thing with Emma, it is unethical, sure. But is it necessary to ensure the safety of a bunch of mutants on the island? Yes. And I think that the benefits far outweighs what she did. I do appreciate that this series is raising these discussions, but I also like that how Moira has lived out her lives is tantamount to several countries’ horrific and bloody past and present. Like, just doing things by the books keeps you a “hero” but will anything ever change?


  2. #1802
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    You know, a thought just occurred to me with how the resurrections work. Given that Xavier uploads their mind from Cerebro, what would happen if he took their mind from and earlier point in time, for example Sabretooth circa the latest Weapon X book?
    I was asking this question after #1. However, it seems Hickman is deliberately avoiding this kind of complication except perhaps under the Force Conventions, where anything is possible....

    ...

    Hmmm...
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #1803
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouse mouse View Post
    I think that with Moira's knowledge of the future they would more likely kill her then try to save her. If the sentinel programming is irreversible then she is too dangerous to both mutants and humans seeing as Moira has seen what Karima will eventually do.
    We will see. I am thinking more along the lines of what options he has available as a writer, given this set-up. My hunch is she is going to be an important character going forward.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #1804
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Slight tangent, but the main problem with this diagram is that it implies everyone wants to watch Baseball. And, while that may seem like a trivial objection, it does cut to one of the inherent problems in viewing equality.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  5. #1805
    Incredible Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Btw, I'm so excited that they'll be exploring Rictor's connection to the Earth! I always liked that part of his powers other than just making tremors, plus it might have a mystical side to it.
    One. Hundred. Percent. Agreed. Pop on over to the Excalibur thread where these such things have been discussed. "Mutant magic".

  6. #1806
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    Which would make total sense.
    From a meta perspective to keep this pot stirring, yeah absolutely.

    In world? I’d think that it’d be pretty easy to judge him for endangering Krakoa AND killing people.

    We’ll have to wait and see how it’s handled, if at all.

  7. #1807
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    I wonder if they are going to execute Sabretooth and resurrect him once again.

  8. #1808
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    If you read the script Hickman says nothing to graphic when he has Sabertooth kill those men. So I don't think much is going to happen

  9. #1809
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    If you read the script Hickman says nothing to graphic when he has Sabertooth kill those men. So I don't think much is going to happen
    While I also don’t expect much to happen, it is made clear later that he killed the guards.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  10. #1810
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Ok. Friendly bet.

    My bet is that he is either not in the rest of Hox Pox at all, or it is revealed that he was asked to get himself arrested by any means possible because they wanted to get a message to a mutant in the prison facility.

    Either way there will be no Krakoan trial, and no example made.
    Okay sure. I feel like we both expect Sabertooth’s early appearance in this series to pay off in some way. And while I think your idea is possible, I struggle to picture such a maximum security prison with only a handful of inmates allowing them to chit chat. I feel like this issue, Society, just gave us a first glimpse of mutant culture. I can absolutely see a scene showing some kind of justice system as a next step. I mean, what do we do with people who break the ruls is one of the core concepts of society, so I’m expecting something of the sort.

    I certainly could be wrong, though. Or Hickman could do something along those lines, but very different from what I’ve suggested. We’ll see.

  11. #1811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Pak Sabretooth wasn't inverted until it was convenient. Remender said Invert Creed was Angelus to Angel. After the ResurrXion re-branding, he became Spike where there is no difference between the good & evil version.

    The only version we'l get is Hickman's who's modeled after the Bendis' version from the looks of it, and with Hickman declaring his love for Bendis, that was an omen for a good few characters right there.
    Naw Hickman writes the characters the way Hickman likes the characters. Him liking Bendis's contribution to the X-Men doesn't imply he's going to write certain characters how Bendis would write them he's got no problem tossing out previous characterization (to a certain extent) if it serves his story. He could very well write Sabertooth as a suave criminal mastermind/King of Madripoor A-list villain but there's like a dozen other characters that can fit that role lol

  12. #1812
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    Nathan Essex is not a mutant so why is he allow to set foot on Krakoa?

  13. #1813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Nathan Essex is not a mutant so why is he allow to set foot on Krakoa?
    He's got Proudstar's gene now.

  14. #1814
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Nathan Essex is not a mutant so why is he allow to set foot on Krakoa?
    He is in exactly the same outfit as the version who declared himself as having the mutant gene. Xavier obviate accepts that and more to the point Hickman likes him.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  15. #1815
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Well..........points were made.

    Oh, in that case I do get that. But I think the sort of progress in terms of equality still won’t be balanced out enough. And imagine if we’ve fully integrated/gone “colorblind” only for the nation to still have ingrained racism/misogynoir/transphobia in its system. It would totally be an “egg on the face” situation and especially in the case of the mutants, I don’t think it’s time for that sort of integration yet. I always like using the equality vs equity scenario.

    Though, if we do get into taking away the “exclusive clubs” then a lot of people are gonna be surprised at how much is stripped away from society, both good and bad.

    I guess my problem doesn’t stem from the X-Men not being “heroic” but people who then either automatically conflate that with “villainy” as if there are no shades of grey or write off everything they are doing because they aren’t being textbook superheroes. The amnesty thing is easily the most controversial move they’ve pulled. I don’t think that means the X-Men will stop fighting for a world that hates and fears them, just now they are looking out for their own first and foremost and that bothers a lot of people.

    There was a discussion not too long ago on here about the importance of the X-Men being “mutants first, heroes second” which got a lot of flack. But I think it makes perfect sense. That is a community that is being targeted against and brutalized by the world, so why would they rush out to kick MODOK’s ass when their family are getting experimented on by O.N.E.? So the thing with Emma, it is unethical, sure. But is it necessary to ensure the safety of a bunch of mutants on the island? Yes. And I think that the benefits far outweighs what she did. I do appreciate that this series is raising these discussions, but I also like that how Moira has lived out her lives is tantamount to several countries’ horrific and bloody past and present. Like, just doing things by the books keeps you a “hero” but will anything ever change?
    I can get that, absolutely. I’d probably also prefer that route of mutants first heroes second if it means we get stories like Hickman’s.

    But I don’t think that invalidates the opinion of those who prefer heroes first mutants second. I feel like the Whedon run is a good example of that, along with a good portion of the Claremont era. Plenty of strong examples of stories with that mindset.

    I think it’s really just a matter of preference, really, or a matter of which approach serves the story the creator wants to tell.

    I think both “sides” are jumping the gun on demonizing those with different views. As you say...I think this story is working in shades of gray. Are the X-Men “heroes”? I think it’s best to judge actions as heroic or not, rather than people. Especially in a story like this. The X-Men are the protagonists.

    And I think that’s a pretty significant shift from the traditional superhero approach, which is very black and white. Some will find such a shift refreshing, others will find it jarring. I think Hickman’s very aware of all this, and is actively using it to help guide how he crafts the story.

    Looking at the resurrection scene, I can see it as a celebration of a new society of people who have been through such hardship, and now for the first time in a long time, they have some sense of unity and hope.

    On the other hand, I can see it as an indoctrinating ritual where someone is almost literally playing god, subverting the laws of nature, and using belief to create a nationalistic group with raised fists.

    It plays both ways, and that’s brilliant.

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