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  1. #1141
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    Unpopular opinion time: I do not consider the beings born from Goldball eggs the 'real deal'. However, this does not mean that their lives have no value or that they are less than their peers not yet dead and resurrected.

    I see them as a backup file of a document that has been deleted. The original has been lost and is in the trash, but for all intents and purposes, the copy is still the same file.

    By the way, is it me or do the mutants in the panel where Storm says 'And it was through their deaths that a great victory was won by for people ... the first victory of many', seem to be making a 'Sieg Heil' kind of gesture?
    Last edited by Zaja; 09-19-2019 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #1142
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    So is Goldballs technically the father of every mutant born from Krakoa?
    I would think he would be the mother since he laid the egg and proteus would be the father since he fertilized it.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  3. #1143
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    I wonder if some mutants would even consider having their appearance altered so they could further distance themselves from humanity. Maybe someone like Masque could alter them.
    I can see that happening. Perhaps some Mutants would do it to cement themselves in Krakoa and keep themselves from trying to live in the human world.

  4. #1144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaja View Post

    By the way, it's me or do the mutants in the panel where Storm says 'And it was through their deaths that a great victory was won by for people ... the first victory of many', seem to be making a 'Sieg Heil' kind of gesture?
    Yeah...i have been waiting for someone else to think that...
    In the real world i would be BOTH pro registration and Pro mutant rights. Xavier and Trask were both right.

  5. #1145
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    You may have revealed the identity of the murder victim of Incoming. Who killed the Goose that laid the golden eggs?

  6. #1146
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Moving on however, I’m curious as to what the opinions are in regards to the “clones” being viable as the original characters or not? In my mind an individual is only the some of its parts, mental and physical. The “soul” simply being the union of the two. So if their “husks” are made from the same exact genetic material and the original body and the mind is copied and pasted directly into said husk, then what exactly is it about them that would make them “not themselves”? Genuinely curious and think this is a great talking point to see people’s ideas on humanity and what makes a person themselves. Also very cool to see and read about as a fan of Altered Carbon.

  7. #1147
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    My previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaja View Post
    Unpopular opinion time: I do not consider the beings born from Goldball eggs the 'real deal'. However, this does not mean that their lives have no value or that they are less than their peers not yet dead and resurrected.

    I see them as a backup file of a document that has been deleted. The original has been lost and is in the trash, but for all intents and purposes, the copy is still the same file.
    Last edited by Zaja; 09-19-2019 at 10:22 AM.

  8. #1148
    Mighty Member WeaponX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Moving on however, I’m curious as to what the opinions are in regards to the “clones” being viable as the original characters or not? In my mind an individual is only the some of its parts, mental and physical. The “soul” simply being the union of the two. So if their “husks” are made from the same exact genetic material and the original body and the mind is copied and pasted directly into said husk, then what exactly is it about them that would make them “not themselves”? Genuinely curious and think this is a great talking point to see people’s ideas on humanity and what makes a person themselves. Also very cool to see and read about as a fan of Altered Carbon.
    Sorry but they state Cerebro copy’s each mutants mind weekly so how could that actually be them? Without some sort of magic these are just clones with memory implants. They would have been smart to say Xavier uses Cerebro to pull the mind out of the astral plane or an unknown place.

    Or I’ll put it another way if this process was offered to you as a healthy viable person would you take to say de-age yourself? I know I wouldn’t unless I’m about to die. I mean do you really think a person is just body and data? I sure don’t.
    Last edited by WeaponX; 09-19-2019 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #1149
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Moving on however, I’m curious as to what the opinions are in regards to the “clones” being viable as the original characters or not? In my mind an individual is only the some of its parts, mental and physical. The “soul” simply being the union of the two. So if their “husks” are made from the same exact genetic material and the original body and the mind is copied and pasted directly into said husk, then what exactly is it about them that would make them “not themselves”? Genuinely curious and think this is a great talking point to see people’s ideas on humanity and what makes a person themselves. Also very cool to see and read about as a fan of Altered Carbon.
    I think they are the original because Hickman enhanced the plot that a mutant body and it's consciousness is connected which imo is what happens everytime Moira dies. The totality of her being, which we have been hearing for decades in X-men simply travels back to her vessel. Also over the years everytime a mutant body has been revived their consciousness returned to it, sort of like Mr. Immortal, his body just lays there and then he's revived with his consciousness in tack. It also explains nightcrawler in heaven, he had no body to return to at first. Jean has rebuilt her body many times and no one questions if it's still her. And on top of that they are literally being reborn not copied and aged. It's more like artificial insemination than straight cloning and then Elixir puts all the right cells into place and voila the mutant is reborn and implanted with memories once that consciousness is awoken in it's body he soul returns.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  10. #1150
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    Has it been explained as to why Monet can shapeshift into Penance/Hollow all of a sudden?

  11. #1151
    Spectacular Member starduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaja View Post
    Unpopular opinion time: I do not consider the beings born from Goldball eggs the 'real deal'. However, this does not mean that their lives have no value or that they are less than their peers not yet dead and resurrected.

    I see them as a backup file of a document that has been deleted. The original has been lost and is in the trash, but for all intents and purposes, the copy is still the same file.

    By the way, is it me or do the mutants in the panel where Storm says 'And it was through their deaths that a great victory was won by for people ... the first victory of many', seem to be making a 'Sieg Heil' kind of gesture?
    I think Hickman is going for an uneasy cult/extremist vibe

  12. #1152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Never thought I’d see the day where “the necessity of sentinels” would be not merely debated, but openly defended here in the X threads. The idea that fascist-funded and at times government legislated death machines are all of a sudden ok because the “muties” finally decided to stop being eternal victims of circumstance and letting there destiny lie in the hands of their oppressors aka the humankind majority is what is really disturbing here, not the events of this story. It’s clear that some of you only warmed to the idea of the mutant/minority metaphor when they were the idealistic underdogs, who never really won and were consistently murdered over the years. Now however they are getting far too uppity and organized and the fear of what they COULD do is enough to mandate a genocidal space factory to manufacture said death machines.
    No one was oppressing Sabretooth into murdering those guards a few issues ago, or when the likes of Apocalypse and Selene murdered thousands by ideology or by sadism, but please, keep pretending this whole debate is not about two particular groups among mutants 1. The one who have no control over their powers the first time they manifest
    And 2. The one who don’t care about human lives #rogue/criminal mutants.
    You are entitled to think this is about mutant in general, absolutely, but it won’t be any less way off base.

    Uppity and organized? I’d like you to take a good look at my signature before talking about the fear of what they could do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    What’s even more interesting is seeing how this perspective potentially overlaps into real world divisive issues. It’s easy to see how someone who thinks that “if A.I is the problem then just have GOOD guys in suits man the sentinels and it’ll all be better!” would also cling to the absurd argument that nothing about U.S gun laws/regulation should be changed and that instead we should just have MORE guns in the hand of “good guys”. Because that’ll fix everything! As if in the 9 lives Moira had before humanity, as a collective, didn’t find a way to kill mutants out of fear Every. Single. Time. How would you propose we find these good, wholesome, fair and completely unbiased humans to be in charge of the mutant murder bots hmmm? How would we test that out? Bloody genius idea that is, just like its real world counterpart.
    It’s a good thing to see how you are trying to project real world issue onto something that as no equivalent in the real world. I already said to someone else not to do that, because it made no sense at all. Mutants are born with superpowers. IRL, people aren’t born with guns as extra-limbs on them. Your skin color doesn’t kill your neighboor. Your faith doesn’t kill your neighboor. Your sexual orientation doesn’t kill your neighboor. I’ll just leave it at that, the difference should be plain enough for anyone to grasp it. You won’t caught me talking about the US and their gun laws either, suffice it to say that you are hilariously off-base with your whole “oh, you think that way about A.I.? So you must cling to the absurd argument that nothing about U.S gun laws/regulation should be changed and that instead we should just have MORE guns in the hand of “good guys”.
    That’s what putting words in someone else’s mouth is, and that’s not a good look from here. As to answer your question, the same way you recruit law enforcement officers in high calibre jobs. I won’t debate about how the US do their recruiting, and what their policy about weapon usage is, but there are countries who happen to have good, wholesome, fair and completely unbiased humans as law enforcers. Now, I’m not like some around here who pretend that everything is perfect, it’s not. But accountability and law should prevail whenever someone get out of line, especially when said someone is supposed to enforce the rule of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    It’s also easy to see how someone who makes the argument that “well not allllll humans think this way so why are the mutants getting so aggressive/racist??” would say the same thing about America’s police force in relation to African Americans/PoC. It doesn’t MATTER that they “aren’t all bad”. That’s not the point, Carol. The problem is that the ones who ARE are protected by the SYSTEM that has always protected them and swept open and public MURDERS under the rug to protect the organization in its entirety for decades. The only reason it’s even a conversation now is because in the age of smartphones it’s not so easy to get away with your bullshit anymore. When your people are executed in the streets for every day offenses and sometimes for just existing then you can speak on what you think is fair. So when the mutants who have been persecuted, tortured, and murdered endlesslyyyy over the years happen to have a distaste for humanity (i.e Polaris being called “racist” for her comments) because of it, maybe ask yourself why that might be before you go calling them “fascists”. Good Lord is the delusion strong with that one. Definitely some Trumpian “there were bad people on both sides” logic going in there.
    Again with the putting words into someone else’s mouth? Especially someone you know NOTHING about? Making a lot of assumption I see. I’ll just repeat what I just said “accountability and law should prevail whenever someone get out of line, especially when said someone is supposed to enforce the rule of law. This is not a political thread but, the US are certainly not on the top of the chart when it comes to “rule of law” and “accountability” so the next step should be about how those two can be enforced in the SYSTEM as you put it, rather than disparaging the *absurd* notion that yes, indeed, not everyone deserve to be thrown under the bus for the shortcoming of some among them. The fact that you go out of your way to make parallels like the ones you made AND proceeded to then put words into my mouth TWICE is Trumpian in itself IMHO. Polaris and others like Magneto can have an history explaining the reason why they see the world the way they do, it doesn’t change the nature of those words. It doesn’t change the nature of the acts committed in the name of genetic supremacy. It doesn’t change the fact that you find entitled supremacists in both branches of humanity in that comic book series. Yes, even among mutants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Lastly it’s easy to see why people would see mutants finally taking pride in themselves, embracing their culture and their different-ness, fighting for a safe place to live and EXIST freely and embracing it with a fervor after YEARS of hiding who they are and being told they are the shameful, hell-bound abominations of the earth as being “culty, creepy, and far too over-zealous”. Reminiscent of the same mentality that equates Pride parades to obnoxious, flagrant displays of homosexuality and increased LGBT perspectives in media as being a “forced and unnecessary agenda push”. You literally must have no idea what it’s like to finally accept yourself for who you are and decide that what everyone else says, what the world thinks, what you’ve been told was wrong with you your whole life doesn’t matter anymore. Because it’s an awesomely moving feeling that inspires more than a few “creepy” chants. It feels like a new life, a fresh start, a new beginning. Maybe with that in perspective you can see the “Krakoa Cult” scene a little differently. If not, then enjoy the Straight Pride parades that have become trendy lately, I’m sure you’ll fit in.
    See, that’s actually the one parallel you made that actually made sense to me, but you had to go out of your way at the end to basically accuse me of being an homophobic. After having said I reminded you of Trumpian mentality earlier. And being a gun apologist before that. It’s a funny picture that you seem to have drawn in your head when again, you literally know nothing about me, my life, my experiences, nothing. You just know where I live, that’s it.
    That’s the third time you’ve made assumptions about me, I’m not particularly impressed tbh. Still, I get what you are saying and yes, there is certainly merits to watch that scene from such perspective. It doesn’t negate the religious undertone/imagery throughout though IMO. Moving on.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Am I saying that everything is fine and dandy and that nothing will go south as things progress through this story? No, I’m not an idiot and I realize that any great story has tension woven into it on both sides. The X-men can’t be perfect all of the time just like everybody else on earth. But any good story will make someone sit back and really consider what they themselves would do in certain situations. Who they would be in that story. What stance would they take. It seems like a lot of you are only X-men fans when they’re “in their place”. The delightful, dramatic underdogs always fighting to survive. Well I’m sorry to tell you that these underdogs are done being “under” anyone’s boot. Now the world can deal with mutants being a group of equal standing with the power and the agency to back it up. As of now, no once has been harmed and/or targeted by Krakoa and yet some of you are screaming from the rooftops every possible negative action they COULD take as being reason enough for humans to authorize their agencies to make robots that will kill them. And then kill the humans themselves too as we’ve seen what stems from their own stupidity and fear-mongering. Just makes me wonder if this story needed to come along to really make some of you ask yourselves. Are you really X-men fans at all? Maybe the Avengers are better suited to you. Better yet, Hydra.
    No. Loving the X-Men doesn’t mean agreeing with everything that is being done, or said, by them. Loving is not agreeing with everything in general. Perspective is important, and the ability to criticize whenever it feels necessary to do so is also important. The X-men “in their place”? Underdogs “under” anyone’s boot?
    Please, get out of here with your assumptions. It’s tiresome to stay polite. I’ve been on this forum for years. And for years, I’ve considered Hickman has the best writer to possibly take the X-Men in a new direction. I didn’t say anything like many around here that I know of, but it’s HILARIOUS to me to see the fandom around these parts discovering thanks to this story how ridiculously crafted and brilliant Hickman is as a writer. X-writers have been such a lacklustre crowd for years now that people are welcoming him as the second coming of Morrison. Bottom line being: don’t go around slapping another one of your out of left field assumptions about me or my expectations about the X-Men. You don’t know me and you definitely don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to that. Suffice it to say that I found LAUGHABLE the fact they never evolved beyond the perimeter defined by the X-Office, and Hickman is exactly the man they needed to give them a new direction. Screaming from the rooftop? No, most of the people here are trying to be logical about the way they present their arguments. If you feel threatened by this to the point of, well pointing fingers and accusing people of being secretly gun apologists with Trumpian mentality and homophobic tendencies, false X-fans to boot, more power to you. That's caricatural enough as is.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  14. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I think they are the original because Hickman enhanced the plot that a mutant body and it's consciousness is connected which imo is what happens everytime Moira dies. The totality of her being, which we have been hearing for decades in X-men simply travels back to her vessel. Also over the years everytime a mutant body has been revived their consciousness returned to it, sort of like Mr. Immortal, his body just lays there and then he's revived with his consciousness in tack. It also explains nightcrawler in heaven, he had no body to return to at first. Jean has rebuilt her body many times and no one questions if it's still her. And on top of that they are literally being reborn not copied and aged. It's more like artificial insemination than straight cloning and then Elixir puts all the right cells into place and voila the mutant is reborn and implanted with memories once that consciousness is awoken in it's body he soul returns.
    This is how I feel. The entire purpose of Storm's scene. To show we aren't dealing with clone & knock-offs. It's the real genuine characters who have been given a power of rebirth similar to Moira. The soul & consciousness is returned with their memories in tact so they can remember their lives & experiences.

  15. #1155
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    not sure if this has been asked already but how on earth do they explain Wolverine being "reborn" with his Adamantium? even though it's not shown you know editorial isn't going to let him lose it
    and what about characters like Magik whose got a total darkside that could be considered not part of her genetic make up?

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