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  1. #1171
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    Magik's mutation activated after she went to limbo. So assuming Xavier got her reading, it'd be one that's post her soul being rend to shreds.
    Which would be redundant as without her going to limbo and using Magic to teleport her mutant powers would basically be time manipulation like Tempus as stated by Dr. Strange in Uncanny X-Men issue 191. _20190919_104946.jpg

  2. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Very interesting points of view. If the body that was offered at a younger age was of my own dna and genetic material that I consider that exact, unique code to be my own. As owning it in a way because it’s impossible for anyone else, living or dead, to have had that exact code. So yes if someone used my genetic material to make me a host body that didnt have the same scars, damage, wear and tear and general use that my current one has? Well this might sound strange to some but I didn’t know why I wouldn’t take that deal. My body is just replicated cells that follow my genetic code. A body with the same genetic code no matter how new, would still in effect be “my” body. So yes I would I think.

    The mind is where is gets tricky I guess. And that’s where you just have to go on the word of what they tell you in the story (so far). What we’ve been told is that Xavier has found a way to make an exact copy of your mind, your personality, and the sum of your experiences. I wouldn’t accept that in any altered way/form but if we are to believe him when he says that then yes. I do believe that with a genetically coded body and a perfectly replicated mind, it would in essence be me, exactly. If a person is not a personalized physical form with the sum total of data and experiences gained in their life than what makes a person? What would you say is missing?
    Maybe it’s just simple, hope summers is the messiah with connection to the pf.

  3. #1173
    Mighty Member WeaponX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    This is how I feel. The entire purpose of Storm's scene. To show we aren't dealing with clone & knock-offs. It's the real genuine characters who have been given a power of rebirth similar to Moira. The soul & consciousness is returned with their memories in tact so they can remember their lives & experiences.
    Yeah but they get a copy of their memories in the process all the scene proved was that. For example Wolverine would have told you he did a lot of things he never did thanks to weapon x memory implants doesn’t mean it actually happened.

    For example my best friend can tell you things like Storm was told about me does that mean we share a soul?

  4. #1174
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaja View Post
    Multiverse.
    I didn't say individual souls don't exist, just that they're a lie told to us by our minds. Lies exist.

    Let's assume Soul is water, and the universe is the ocean. Your mind is a freezing glass. Should the mind expire, the Soul in that mind would retain the shape for a time. Some last quite some time. Some can be refrozen with magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaja View Post
    Mephisto.
    Ask whoever's asleep at the editorial office.

    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    For example my best friend can tell you things like Storm was told about me does that mean we share a soul?
    Would that be a bad thing?
    Last edited by CRaymond; 09-19-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  5. #1175
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    To me the the intention seems to be that they are the same people, and Mutants as a people have evolved past death.

  6. #1176
    spit and hades! Andru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComeOnBunny View Post
    Which would be redundant as without her going to limbo and using Magic to teleport her mutant powers would basically be time manipulation like Tempus as stated by Dr. Strange in Uncanny X-Men issue 191. _20190919_104946.jpg
    Magik's mutation is the ability to summon stepping discs from Limbo. Even if she was not lured into Limbo by Belasco, she still would have generated the same mutant ability. Her ability to teleport through time & space is directly linked to the stepping discs.

  7. #1177
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    One could also just as easily assume that mutant souls are tied to their x-gene. There are so many ways to make it work that isn't that hard that the push back on it is fascinating.

    They can say when madeline did a deal so she never truly died she said mutant souls can't remain in heaven or hell.
    They can say mutant souls have evolved as well.
    They can say they just psionically call the souls back. (Yo cyclops, your body read.)

    The one thing we know of in the Marvel universe is souls have the memories of who they were, and apparently they can come back so there is literally nothing in marvel that truly contradicts it.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  8. #1178
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Damn these threads really take off on their own. It's really cool to see such discussion happening, and such a variety of views and opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Am I the only person with the “I absolutely love this series but can’t recommend it” mentality? I mean the more I read, the more I find it harder to recommend it to any casual superhero fans. It’s a very heavy series that was supposed to be a jumping on point for “new readers” but I could easily see people just being completely overwhelmed by everything going on especially the recent developments in this issue with the X-men being reborn.
    Kind of the opposite for me. This is one of the few superhero books I would recommend. I think a general knowledge of the X-Men is all that's needed. Sure, there are a lot of references to past stories and so on, but they're either minor or else their importance is explained in this story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnusilver View Post
    Mutants in that celebration scene are too much like a group of fanatical nationalists cheering at their supreme leader. It really makes me feel uncomfortable.
    I love that the scene can be viewed either way. I can see this as a cultural celebration that I don't quite understand, but that seems important to those involved. Or I can see it as a nationalist rally, including upraised fists and chanting about greatness.

    Lots of people seem to see only one thing, but it's clearly both, and I think that's the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Lest we forget: The X-Men Orchis raid team saved the whole of human civilization when they died to destroy the Mother Mold.

    The instant that thing went online it was insane and bent on destroying all sentient organic life. We have seen the long-term results of that in PoX. And there is a more than decent chance that MM was able to upload its AI elsewhere before going into the sun.
    This is true, and goes back to the original Days of Future Past story, too. The Sentinels don't bother making a strong distinction between a mutant and an altered human for long.

    However, this time it seemed to happen as a direct result of the early activation that was triggered in response to the X-Men's attack. There is strong evidence in the books that Dr. Gregor was at one point a mutant ally....she tried to help mutants after the decimation. The protocol in Mother Mold was designed to ensure that it would maintain moral programming.

    Now, we have no idea exactly what that would mean. It certainly could have went the way it always seems to, but maybe it would have been different. We don't know. And I'm not saying I blame the X-Men for attacking as they did....I absolutely get it. But I have to say that I'm happy that the Orchis folks haven't been portrayed as mustache twirling, genocidal maniacs like many past x-villains. I like that their goals seem a bit more born from fear than from hatred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cochese View Post
    There’s absolutely a discomfort to this. Everything the mutants are doing is predicated on the knowledge of what will happen if they just keep trying the same things again, and on that level it is reasonable. However, this puts us in the same philosophical ballpark as the grand narratives of Asimov’s Foundation, Herbert’s Dune, or the early 20th Century philosophers, phrenologists and anthropologists who unwittingly helped steer humanity toward the depredations of the Holocaust by losing sight of the human. Dune’s “Golden Path” in particular places its characters in a straitjacket that they must strive to escape, and we are promised that this struggle will lead to their emergence from the chrysalis as a viable species that may survive the future.

    In House Of X, we are told that the mutants must give up the human to survive. This may mean giving up family ties to an extent (and are not most mutant parents human?), giving up human attitudes on public nudity, adopting a new language, and new rituals. This may seem like a cult, but actually they’re more like Magneto’s tribe that settled the land and said “this place is good”. I think this really is a viable society, and I’m sure we’ll see more of that as DoX progresses. We have to examine ourselves at this point and wonder whether our discomfort at the rebirth ritual is really because of modern fears of Jonestown-like scenarios, or because the mutants are genuinely beginning to become an alien society to us; the tribe across the river that worship different gods from us.
    Excellent post. It does indeed seem to be that they're shedding their humanity, in a way. And you're spot on with the references to other fiction, particularly Dune, I think.

    I like the lack of a clear cut answer. I think it's intentionally layered....yes, the X-Men are righteous and are claiming their own destiny more than ever before. But to do so, they're becoming monolithic and nationalistic, much like those who've hated them in the past.

  9. #1179
    Mighty Member WeaponX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Very interesting points of view. If the body that was offered at a younger age was of my own dna and genetic material that I consider that exact, unique code to be my own. As owning it in a way because it’s impossible for anyone else, living or dead, to have had that exact code. So yes if someone used my genetic material to make me a host body that didnt have the same scars, damage, wear and tear and general use that my current one has? Well this might sound strange to some but I didn’t know why I wouldn’t take that deal. My body is just replicated cells that follow my genetic code. A body with the same genetic code no matter how new, would still in effect be “my” body. So yes I would I think.

    The mind is where is gets tricky I guess. And that’s where you just have to go on the word of what they tell you in the story (so far). What we’ve been told is that Xavier has found a way to make an exact copy of your mind, your personality, and the sum of your experiences. I wouldn’t accept that in any altered way/form but if we are to believe him when he says that then yes. I do believe that with a genetically coded body and a perfectly replicated mind, it would in essence be me, exactly. If a person is not a personalized physical form with the sum total of data and experiences gained in their life than what makes a person? What would you say is missing?
    It’s hard to say but I would say yeah it’s an exact copy of me but it’s not me. Let me try it another way they admit they could do this entire process while you’re still alive hence the confirmation of death policy. So if they could do everything they’re going to do while you’re alive than how could that be resurrecting you rather than just making an exact copy?
    Last edited by WeaponX; 09-19-2019 at 11:13 AM.

  10. #1180
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    It's ironic that ultimately the resurrections all depend on cerebro a soulless machine as without it they will remain only empty husks.Lol

  11. #1181
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    The one thing we know of in the Marvel universe is souls have the memories of who they were, and apparently they can come back so there is literally nothing in marvel that truly contradicts it.
    The piece of evidence that is left unexamined is that this process can create duplicates

    Which soul does a duplicate have?

    Why be so careful with duplicates?

    This all just seems to very much be a cloning process that simply tries to rely as little as it has to on machine technology, something that the current definition of the Omega classification seems to emphasise.

  12. #1182
    Incredible Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Goldballs is now everyone's mother

  13. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Never thought I’d see the day where “the necessity of sentinels” would be not merely debated, but openly defended here in the X threads. The idea that fascist-funded and at times government legislated death machines are all of a sudden ok because the “muties” finally decided to stop being eternal victims of circumstance and letting there destiny lie in the hands of their oppressors aka the humankind majority is what is really disturbing here, not the events of this story. It’s clear that some of you only warmed to the idea of the mutant/minority metaphor when they were the idealistic underdogs, who never really won and were consistently murdered over the years. Now however they are getting far too uppity and organized and the fear of what they COULD do is enough to mandate a genocidal space factory to manufacture said death machines.

    What’s even more interesting is seeing how this perspective potentially overlaps into real world divisive issues. It’s easy to see how someone who thinks that “if A.I is the problem then just have GOOD guys in suits man the sentinels and it’ll all be better!” would also cling to the absurd argument that nothing about U.S gun laws/regulation should be changed and that instead we should just have MORE guns in the hand of “good guys”. Because that’ll fix everything! As if in the 9 lives Moira had before humanity, as a collective, didn’t find a way to kill mutants out of fear Every. Single. Time. How would you propose we find these good, wholesome, fair and completely unbiased humans to be in charge of the mutant murder bots hmmm? How would we test that out? Bloody genius idea that is, just like its real world counterpart.

    It’s also easy to see how someone who makes the argument that “well not allllll humans think this way so why are the mutants getting so aggressive/racist??” would say the same thing about America’s police force in relation to African Americans/PoC. It doesn’t MATTER that they “aren’t all bad”. That’s not the point, Carol. The problem is that the ones who ARE are protected by the SYSTEM that has always protected them and swept open and public MURDERS under the rug to protect the organization in its entirety for decades. The only reason it’s even a conversation now is because in the age of smartphones it’s not so easy to get away with your bullshit anymore. When your people are executed in the streets for every day offenses and sometimes for just existing then you can speak on what you think is fair. So when the mutants who have been persecuted, tortured, and murdered endlesslyyyy over the years happen to have a distaste for humanity (i.e Polaris being called “racist” for her comments) because of it, maybe ask yourself why that might be before you go calling them “fascists”. Good Lord is the delusion strong with that one. Definitely some Trumpian “there were bad people on both sides” logic going in there.

    Lastly it’s easy to see why people would see mutants finally taking pride in themselves, embracing their culture and their different-ness, fighting for a safe place to live and EXIST freely and embracing it with a fervor after YEARS of hiding who they are and being told they are the shameful, hell-bound abominations of the earth as being “culty, creepy, and far too over-zealous”. Reminiscent of the same mentality that equates Pride parades to obnoxious, flagrant displays of homosexuality and increased LGBT perspectives in media as being a “forced and unnecessary agenda push”. You literally must have no idea what it’s like to finally accept yourself for who you are and decide that what everyone else says, what the world thinks, what you’ve been told was wrong with you your whole life doesn’t matter anymore. Because it’s an awesomely moving feeling that inspires more than a few “creepy” chants. It feels like a new life, a fresh start, a new beginning. Maybe with that in perspective you can see the “Krakoa Cult” scene a little differently. If not, then enjoy the Straight Pride parades that have become trendy lately, I’m sure you’ll fit in.

    Am I saying that everything is fine and dandy and that nothing will go south as things progress through this story? No, I’m not an idiot and I realize that any great story has tension woven into it on both sides. The X-men can’t be perfect all of the time just like everybody else on earth. But any good story will make someone sit back and really consider what they themselves would do in certain situations. Who they would be in that story. What stance would they take. It seems like a lot of you are only X-men fans when they’re “in their place”. The delightful, dramatic underdogs always fighting to survive. Well I’m sorry to tell you that these underdogs are done being “under” anyone’s boot. Now the world can deal with mutants being a group of equal standing with the power and the agency to back it up. As of now, no once has been harmed and/or targeted by Krakoa and yet some of you are screaming from the rooftops every possible negative action they COULD take as being reason enough for humans to authorize their agencies to make robots that will kill them. And then kill the humans themselves too as we’ve seen what stems from their own stupidity and fear-mongering. Just makes me wonder if this story needed to come along to really make some of you ask yourselves. Are you really X-men fans at all? Maybe the Avengers are better suited to you. Better yet, Hydra.
    So one is not a true X-men fan if they don't fully embrace this new status quo, if they question the direction the X-men are headed or choose to look at the storyline objectively instead of drinking the kool aid their not true fans? Really! So like all the mutants on Krakoa all the readers/posters must be some hive mind that agrees with everything? I'll pass on that thanks. Just because I'm an X-men fan does not mean I blindly accept or agree with everything they do. This cult like mentality that's going on is not for me. Wakanda, a nation of black africans did not accept the mutants offer, are they now racists or prejudiced against mutants? If mutants don't get whatever they want are they victims of bias and bigotry? This notion that all mutants are peaceful and loving and would never hurt a fly is false. Magneto announced himself to the world with an act of aggression, humans have every right to be apprehensive and weary of mutants and should make every effort to protect themselves.

  14. #1184
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    The piece of evidence that is left unexamined is that this process can create duplicates

    Which soul does a duplicate have?

    Why be so careful with duplicates?

    This all just seems to very much be a cloning process that simply tries to rely as little as it has to on machine technology, something that the current definition of the Omega classification seems to emphasise.
    I think thats why they are going out of their way to say that. Every case of duplicates we have seen with mutants there has been identity problems. Cable/Strife Jean/Maddie perhaps is that battle of the original soul or it's splitting that makes them unstable. Jean did reabsorb part of her essence from Maddie implying that it was split because a "duplicate" well in Maddie's case a clone, existed.
    Last edited by jwatson; 09-19-2019 at 11:16 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  15. #1185
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    It's ironic that ultimately the resurrections all depend on cerebro a soulless machine as without it they will remain only empty husks.Lol
    Actuallly without Xavier or another telepath. A gun can't shoot itself and cerebro can't do much on it's own either. So it's basically a tool.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

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