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  1. #1546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    No, the idea is that the X-Men are trying to make the world better for them. It just happens to be practical to try and appease the humans to do that...at the moment.
    That's the thing. It wasn't always just about making sure mutants have a place. That was primary, but the X-Men were thinking about bringing out the best in humanity as a whole too. That's a slight but important difference.

  2. #1547
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That's the thing. It wasn't always just about making sure mutants have a place. That was primary, but the X-Men were thinking about bringing out the best in humanity as a whole too. That's a slight but important difference.
    I am pretty sure that if the Kree, demons or whatever invade the Earth the X-Men will continue to help the humans to defend it.

  3. #1548

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    The X-Men are recognizing that their survival as a species demands a change in their understanding of what "together" means.

    Are mutants and humans not living together? They still share a planet, and we've seen that most countries in the world have recognized Krakoa. It's certainly true that "together" doesn't seem to imply a trend towards loving peace and understanding -- but what would you do in the place of mutants? Ideally, we may want to love the enemy as a friend, but if the enemy chooses to wipe your people from the planet, might it not be wise to change one's ideals in the face of utter annihilation?

    -Pav, who is glad for the conversation...

    EDIT: For what it's worth, I've always been fascinated by the mutants who have lives outside being superheroes: Madrox as a PI, Bishop as a cop, Dazzler and X-Statix as celebrities, and so on --- that's always been something I've wanted further developed in the comics. So I'm all in for Emma as diplomat, Doug as Krakoan translator, The Five as almost religious paragons, and whatever else Hickman has planned for each character.
    And we have only seen one aggressive international instance so far when the Krakoan government engaged in a clandestine op into space to deal with a rogue organization that was building a super weapon to use against the nation of Krakoa. All the countries of Earth have disavowed being linked to Orchis (even though some of them probably are linked). The rogue Orchis base was destroyed, and Krakoa was not censored by the United Nations because this was considered an illegal organization who was building a super weapon.

    On the other hand politically the nation of Krakoa is open for trade, we are signing treaties with any human country that wants our products. We don't even overcharge for those products, all we ask is that you make overtures to recognize mutant rights in your countries, and we are granting amnesty to any mutant who wants to move to Krakoa. We will even sign an agreement with human nations where they can deport mutant criminals to Krakoa and we accept responsibility for these people and allow them to become citizens of Krakoa. This helps the human governments reduce imprisonment costs, and they can revoke the citizenship rights of all those criminals and make them the responsibility of Krakoa now.

    The mutants are acting in such a way that they are being recognized as politically equal to a point. I guarantee there are people in the military industrial complex just itching to attack Krakoa and they will be looking for the first provocation to do so. But for the moment the dream is partly realized, coexistence has been partly achieved. There is still rampant anti-mutant racism, and some countries like Russia refuse to sign a treaty at all with Krakoa.

    So far mutants are only putting themselves in a position where they can legitimately negotiate with the world governments and fight for mutant rights politically through the United Nations. They are now a recognized country which means they have an actual seat at the United Nations. All of the countries that they have treaties with they are now able to legally open embassies and they have transport hub embassies in a few countries already.

  4. #1549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I am pretty sure that if the Kree, demons or whatever invade the Earth the X-Men will continue to help the humans to defend it.


    And if the Kree, etc attack only humans and leave mutants alone?
    That's the question with today's characterization of the X-Men. Are they playing superhero in that moment? I don't think that has been made clear yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    The X-Men are recognizing that their survival as a species demands a change in their understanding of what "together" means.

    Are mutants and humans not living together? They still share a planet, and we've seen that most countries in the world have recognized Krakoa. It's certainly true that "together" doesn't seem to imply a trend towards loving peace and understanding -- but what would you do in the place of mutants? Ideally, we may want to love the enemy as a friend, but if the enemy chooses to wipe your people from the planet, might it not be wise to change one's ideals in the face of utter annihilation?

    -Pav, who is glad for the conversation...
    Were it me, had I the numbers? I might let power corrupt absolutley and take over the planet and establish my people as the rulers of the world.

    But I'm not a superhero. The X-Men are.

    Absolutely, you want to establish a defensible position and have power and influence so that you can protect your people, at the least. What made the X-Men different from the Inhumans or at Atlantis, or myself is that they were heroes.
    Last edited by Kitty&Piotr<3; 09-21-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  5. #1550
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jeeper 2.0 View Post
    Krakoa is for mutants and mutants only.
    What if baseline humans say fine... The seven continents are for baseline humans only.

  6. #1551
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    While there is no denying the creepy aspect of the current storyline, expecting the X-MEN to constantly play the role of Marty's to the point of extinction also doesn't seem feasible. It seems there is no ideal solution for this conundrum.

  7. #1552
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    I’m loving the series and all the debate. It’s interesting to see all the different takes on this, and how we can compare the story to some things from the real world.

    But yeah, I can’t say I blame the mutants for wanting a place that is separate but equal. Sounds totally reasonable.


  8. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    I wonder how this will play out. What if baseline humans say fine... The seven continents are for baseline humans only.
    It can't be that strict. Surely they wouldn't boot the human child of a mutant couple.

  9. #1554

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Were it me, had I the numbers? I might let power corrupt absolutley and take over the planet and establish my people as the rulers of the world.

    But I'm not a superhero. The X-Men are.

    Absolutely, you want to establish a defensible position and have power and influence so that you can protect your people, at the least. What made the X-Men different from the Inhumans or at Atlantis, or myself is that they were heroes.
    Can they not choose to be like Wakanda and form their own nation to protect their people from oppression?

    Can they not choose to be like Wakanda and negotiate for international rights as a nation and be recognized as a country by the United Nations?

    Can they not choose to be like Wakanda and defend their nation like a true country from conquerors and invaders who would try to destroy them?

    So far Krakoa has offered peace treaties and they have not coerced the governments of the world to sign with them. Even the manipulation Emma did, she didn't force the Russians to sign a trade/peace treaty, she just nudged the Security Council Representative to abstain from the vote and allow the nation status of Krakoa to go to the general assembly where it passed without any manipulation at all. Emma just prevented the Russians from using their Veto to undermine the formation of the nation of Krakoa.

    Krakoa is open to negotiate with the Russians if the Russians want their products. They are open to negotiating with other nations who did not sign on to a trade/peace treaty.

    Krakoa isn't looking for war, we believe in world peace and we stand with all the principles and rules of the United Nations, and perhaps they have even signed on with the Geneva Accords and agreed to adhere to those accords and other principle agreements of the United Nations.

  10. #1555
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    What if baseline humans say fine... The seven continents are for baseline humans only.
    Because they’re mad they can’t visit one island? Well those two aren’t comparably fair.

  11. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    And if the Kree, etc attack only humans and leave mutants alone?
    That's the question with today's characterization of the X-Men. Are they playing superhero in that moment? I don't think that has been made clear yet.



    Were it me, had I the numbers? I might let power corrupt absolutley and take over the planet and establish my people as the rulers of the world.

    But I'm not a superhero. The X-Men are.

    Absolutely, you want to establish a defensible position and have power and influence so that you can protect your people, at the least. What made the X-Men different from the Inhumans or at Atlantis, or myself is that they were heroes.
    And they still are! We read how their people cheered for Cyclops and the others who risked their lives for their brothers and sisters

    That's what I love about this series. Everything we love about the X-Men is still here; we're just sort of being shone their adventures through a different angle than were used to. Some may prefer a more traditional approach, but I want comics about mutants to be forward-thinking and a little off, just like the characters.

    -Pav, who appreciates Hickman's philosophical approach...
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  12. #1557

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    And they still are! We read how their people cheered for Cyclops and the others who risked their lives for their brothers and sisters

    That's what I love about this series. Everything we love about the X-Men is still here; we're just sort of being shone their adventures through a different angle than were used to. Some may prefer a more traditional approach, but I want comics about mutants to be forward-thinking and a little off, just like the characters.

    -Pav, who appreciates Hickman's philosophical approach...
    I think they will be involved in some of the big threat stories going forward, they will just appear in those stories as the armed forces of Krakoa coming to the assistance of the world to help stop global threats. Heck the Krakoans could offer their services as UN Peace Keepers now, and even sign on as a member of NATO if they are welcomed to do so. I think they would stay out NATO though since they are still trying to come to an agreement with the Russians and wouldn't want to make such a provocative move to join NATO when they still have a chance to sign a trade agreement with Russia and help their Russian mutant brothers and sisters come to Krakoa.

  13. #1558
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    Still really irks me that Callisto is there with the villains.

  14. #1559
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That kid is a kid. What we're actually talking about is a set of characters going from being about changing the world for the better to just giving in because it was hard..
    Well Mutants are Mutants. What we are actually talking is the results of endless stories of mutants being smacked down by human pass the level where they should be heroic and idealistic. This is a cause and result story. Talking about "ideals" in the face real thing bad stuff happens is weird. The X-men were figuratively at the end of the firing line, And one guy says hey let's live peace he gets shot in the head, The next guy says let's live in peace he gets shot in the head, The next guy says let's live in peace and he gets shot in the head. You are asking for the X-men to do the same thing in the face of knowing the results because of "Heroism and Idealism". It is a dangerous example to bring up because so many people died from it but a lot more lives were saved by dropping an atomic bomb. Sometimes it is time for something different and the middle result(Atomic bomb) is quite horrible but the end goal of peace happened because of it.

    I haven't seen the X-men give up on their ideal of peaceful coexistence yet but they are certainly fighting differently now which is sometimes required.As with the example before I can't 100% percent praise the Atom Bomb as the right decision because so many people died, as a result, it but I can't say it was the wrong decision either because of the end result. This a story where you aren't going to agree with all the choices and ask sometimes if the ends justifies the means. And to me that story now is better than X-men endless getting smacked in a manner in which they should have destroyed every human on the planet and bring peace to the earth. Stop asking for the X-men to stand at the end of firing line waiting to die.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-21-2019 at 10:53 AM.

  15. #1560

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    Still really irks me that Callisto is there with the villains.
    She might have been a criminal in the US and was released from incarceration to join Krakoa under the amnesty agreement. I imagine Callisto won't be opposed to being in Krakoa, although she might decide to start a private fight club, I remember she was running a fight club at the end of X-Treme X-Men ages ago.

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