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  1. #1591

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    We will never truly escape Ex Nihilo's shit-eating grin. It's 'a comin'.

    Hickman PLEASE have Karnak deliver muffins.
    OMG, coming to the Moon habitat with an apron on and Karnak goes "I just wanted to invite you to the neighbourhood, and would you like to join the community league?"

  2. #1592
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    It’s interesting how everyone’s talking about “the humans” and “the mutants” as if each group has only one opinion and they’re opposing opinions, and there’s no middle ground at all. It seems like a pretty flawed approach, and one which kind of justifies the opposing side.

    Perhaps this is the reason why the Phalanx have been brought into the story. A caution against the hivemind.

    I think that the story so far hasn’t been focused on nuance because the goal is to establish the mew status quo rather than to question the new status quo. I expect some more nuance when the Dawn of X books come out. So for the needs of the story, I realize why Hickman seems to have eschewed a variety of opinions on Xavier’s Krakoa plan.

    But for discussion’s sake...it seems pretty limiting.

  3. #1593
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    I can only think that if I were a Kree or Skrull, seeing that the Earth could head to a cold war between Mutants and Humans, if / when that cold war turns hot, I would tell both sides what Menachem Begin told Iranians and Iraqis at the outbreak of their eight years war: 'I wish both sides much success'.

  4. #1594

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    It’s interesting how everyone’s talking about “the humans” and “the mutants” as if each group has only one opinion and they’re opposing opinions, and there’s no middle ground at all. It seems like a pretty flawed approach, and one which kind of justifies the opposing side.

    Perhaps this is the reason why the Phalanx have been brought into the story. A caution against the hivemind.

    I think that the story so far hasn’t been focused on nuance because the goal is to establish the mew status quo rather than to question the new status quo. I expect some more nuance when the Dawn of X books come out. So for the needs of the story, I realize why Hickman seems to have eschewed a variety of opinions on Xavier’s Krakoa plan.

    But for discussion’s sake...it seems pretty limiting.
    Being a mutant does impact your ability to live in human society though! If you are a mutant you could be fired from your job, you could be arrested without provocation, you could be captured for experimentation by the government, you could have your powers forcibly cured by the human government. If you are a mutant there is a global crisis of prejudice directed at your people, in order to fight that global prejudice you need to unify as a race, and fight for the recognition of your rights.

  5. #1595
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Yeah it’s essentially the “why isn’t there a White Entertainment Television or Straight Pride Parade or Historically White College/University” argument that ignores why these communities needed to do so in the first place.
    I don’t really think there’s any such thing as an entirely straight parade.

    I get this angle entirely. There’s nothing wrong with wanting representation on television or wanting entertainment that appeals to any given demographic.

    But I do think that when we’re talking about improving those situations, the question becomes what is the end goal. Is it that each category of person has their own specific entertainment? Or is the end goal beyond that next step? Where the mainstream includes elements form all kinds of points of view and can appeal to all?

    I don’t know if there’s a right or wrong answer to that, but it’s an interesting question. I don’t think everyone who raises it is automatically of the “straight pride parade” sort.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    White Queen is taking away autonomy from ambassadors. Out of context, whoa she’s a monster. In context, she’s lost so many mutants and this is the only way she can ensure their safety so she’s absolutely willing to break all the rules.
    Absolutely. We can understand her motives for compromising. They’re compelling, and I expect I’d think similarly in that situation. But, it is indeed a compromise. So the question becomes exactly how far are people willing to compromise to get what they want?

    Again, I think people who are questioning Xavier and some of his actions aren’t all doing so from some kind of “morally superior” stance, although some may be. I think many are just seeing some of these things as the first step toward something worse.

  6. #1596
    Incredible Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Yeah sorry, bad wording. I meant expanding their already existing habitats on the Moon and Mars. Like, to engulf the whole satellite/planet's surface. I wonder how Krakoa interacts with Ex Nihilo's garden.
    Gotcha! Yeah I was pushing the "X-Men are being moved to Mars" theory pretty hard before Hickman's run began so I'm all for it. I guess they don't need a massive habitat in each place, just enough to 'port to and from Krakoa. But I CAN'T IMAGINE Hickman not bringing Ex Nilly into all of this at some point. X-Nilly

  7. #1597
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Being a mutant does impact your ability to live in human society though! If you are a mutant you could be fired from your job, you could be arrested without provocation, you could be captured for experimentation by the government, you could have your powers forcibly cured by the human government. If you are a mutant there is a global crisis of prejudice directed at your people, in order to fight that global prejudice you need to unify as a race, and fight for the recognition of your rights.
    Sure, I get that. I think that’s the reason why Hickman is presenting the X-Men in a very monolithic manner. No one’s really questioning anything about the plan or the methods they’re using and so on. At first, that bothered me, but as the story has gone on, I think I get why he’s doing that, and I think it works for this status quo establishing series.

    Same as taking the X-Men’s most notable human ally and making her a closeted mutant. It very much puts mutantkind into that isolated state.

    However, I don’t think that can last. As things move forward and we have 6 or 8 books with several characters a piece in each one, we better get some diversity of opinion or else it’s going to be bland. We/Phalanx will not enjoy.

    I’m all for the path they’re taking for storytelling purposes. This is the best the X-Men have been in a long time and it’s thought provoking and new. I love it.

    But from a more in-fiction perspective, I don’t know if I can agree with it all. I absolutely question some of the things being done. I wonder if others are actually a good idea.

    I don’t think that makes me “against the mutants” or anything like that.

  8. #1598
    Incredible Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Gotcha! Yeah I was pushing the "X-Men are being moved to Mars" theory pretty hard before Hickman's run began so I'm all for it. I guess they don't need a massive habitat in each place, just enough to 'port to and from Krakoa. But I CAN'T IMAGINE Hickman not bringing Ex Nilly into all of this at some point. X-Nilly
    Hickman loves himself some Ex Nihilo, pretty sure he'll bring him on board with all the evolution/expansion of life talk.

    Krakoa could become the biggest colonizing force in the universe! Plant a flower and you have a fully connected habitat. The Cuckoos said it is not limited by distance or environment, so I guess it could still be connected from say another solar system. If I were an Alien civilization Id be pretty scared.

  9. #1599
    You guessed it mr_crisp's Avatar
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    With the whole cloning thing Xavier is Rusty Venture now?
    The Gypsies had no home. The Doors had no bass.

    Does our reality determine our fiction or does our fiction determine our reality?

    Whenever the question comes up about who some mysterious person is or who is behind something the answer will always be Frank Stallone.

    "This isn't a locking the barn doors after the horses ran way situation this is a burn the barn down after the horses ran away situation."

  10. #1600
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Gotcha! Yeah I was pushing the "X-Men are being moved to Mars" theory pretty hard before Hickman's run began so I'm all for it. I guess they don't need a massive habitat in each place, just enough to 'port to and from Krakoa. But I CAN'T IMAGINE Hickman not bringing Ex Nilly into all of this at some point. X-Nilly
    Speaking of Ex-Nilly what ever became of Tamara? It'd be interesting if Hickman gave her a voice and opinion on what mutants meant to the universe especially when you think about Franklin and the fact that any other mutant could possibly be born as powerful as he is. There has be be a grand purpose to what the Celestials did at some point.

  11. #1601
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_crisp View Post
    With the whole cloning thing Xavier is Rusty Venture now?
    Eh Xavier's more like Thaddeus Venture.... Legion is Rusty
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #1602
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I don’t really think there’s any such thing as an entirely straight parade.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ton/index.html

    I get this angle entirely. There’s nothing wrong with wanting representation on television or wanting entertainment that appeals to any given demographic.

    But I do think that when we’re talking about improving those situations, the question becomes what is the end goal. Is it that each category of person has their own specific entertainment? Or is the end goal beyond that next step? Where the mainstream includes elements form all kinds of points of view and can appeal to all?

    I don’t know if there’s a right or wrong answer to that, but it’s an interesting question. I don’t think everyone who raises it is automatically of the “straight pride parade” sort.
    Each category of person? Well there are intersections of identity, if you’ve been barred from mainstream culture then it’s fair to create your own culture in your community not only as a means of survival but celebrating something that the majority considers an abomination. Yes, the end goal is representation for all but also the deconstruction of the supposed norm when it comes to race, gender, sexuality. Whiteness, heteronormativity, cisness, maleness are all regarded as the norm that everything is distanced from and that creates prejudice and hatred for “the other.” If those social constructs are seen as just that, constructs made up to put certain people on a pedestal while dehumanizing others, then that means the validation of all people.

    When the argument stems from, “if this disadvantaged group gets to have this exclusive club, why can’t we? The majority that holds all the power?” as the way of thinking then it is equivalent to the straight parade logic. But talking about representation in general doesn’t subscribe to that notion, however the question I replied to does.

    Absolutely. We can understand her motives for compromising. They’re compelling, and I expect I’d think similarly in that situation. But, it is indeed a compromise. So the question becomes exactly how far are people willing to compromise to get what they want?

    Again, I think people who are questioning Xavier and some of his actions aren’t all doing so from some kind of “morally superior” stance, although some may be. I think many are just seeing some of these things as the first step toward something worse.
    Idk most of the controversy I’ve seen surrounding Xavier and the X-Men’s choices have been from the POV that they aren’t being “heroic.” I would appreciate it if the crux of that problem was “how far are they willing to go?” but most people, at least from my feed, have already categorized mutants siding with Krakoa as villainous.

  13. #1603
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    It’s interesting how everyone’s talking about “the humans” and “the mutants” as if each group has only one opinion and they’re opposing opinions, and there’s no middle ground at all. It seems like a pretty flawed approach, and one which kind of justifies the opposing side.

    Perhaps this is the reason why the Phalanx have been brought into the story. A caution against the hivemind.

    I think that the story so far hasn’t been focused on nuance because the goal is to establish the mew status quo rather than to question the new status quo. I expect some more nuance when the Dawn of X books come out. So for the needs of the story, I realize why Hickman seems to have eschewed a variety of opinions on Xavier’s Krakoa plan.

    But for discussion’s sake...it seems pretty limiting.
    That’s one thing about this run that’s been bothering me. It’s treated the whole human/mutant thing as black and white but what about the gray? What about the humans who have either always been supporters of mutantkind or those who have come around to see their original prejudices were wrong? Not everyone of humanity has wronged mutants (in fact, they have quite a few friends) so why is it that humanity as a whole is treated like they are all trash while all mutants are treated as though their crap don’t stink? Where exactly is the line drawn?

  14. #1604
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ton/index.html



    Each category of person? Well there are intersections of identity, if you’ve been barred from mainstream culture then it’s fair to create your own culture in your community not only as a means of survival but celebrating something that the majority considers an abomination. Yes, the end goal is representation for all but also the deconstruction of the supposed norm when it comes to race, gender, sexuality. Whiteness, heteronormativity, cisness, maleness are all regarded as the norm that everything is distanced from and that creates prejudice and hatred for “the other.” If those social constructs are seen as just that, constructs made up to put certain people on a pedestal while dehumanizing others, then that means the validation of all people.

    When the argument stems from, “if this disadvantaged group gets to have this exclusive club, why can’t we? The majority that holds all the power?” as the way of thinking then it is equivalent to the straight parade logic. But talking about representation in general doesn’t subscribe to that notion, however the question I replied to does.



    Idk most of the controversy I’ve seen surrounding Xavier and the X-Men’s choices have been from the POV that they aren’t being “heroic.” I would appreciate it if the crux of that problem was “how far are they willing to go?” but most people, at least from my feed, have already categorized mutants siding with Krakoa as villainous.
    Did you ever think that you'd live to see the day that people considered a group of heroes destroying genocdiebots villains?

  15. #1605
    Incredible Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Thatís one thing about this run thatís been bothering me. Itís treated the whole human/mutant thing as black and white but what about the gray? What about the humans who have either always been supporters of mutantkind or those who have come around to see their original prejudices were wrong? Not everyone of humanity has wronged mutants (in fact, they have quite a few friends) so why is it that humanity as a whole is treated like they are all trash while all mutants are treated as though their crap donít stink? Where exactly is the line drawn?
    Well it mostly comes from Moira living so many lives and the humans exterminating the mutants seemingly every time. But you're right in that it's not all humans, but the mutants have to rally and bring their people in so they can then strategize from there. They're not saying "kill all the humans" or "treat humans like trash". They're offering life-extending, life-saving medicine to the humans. Clearly they're fine with humans sticking around. :-)

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