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  1. #1351
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Imo it does. She did what every other politician does when they have access to dirt on someone. Is it right? No do I personally feel it's for the greater good? Yes.

    Slave owners would say it was wrong to steal their property and whisknthem up North but people against slavery would say owning other people is wrong.
    Sure, I get it. You believe that if the end goal is virtuous, then non-virtuous actions in support of that goal are acceptable. I would never say that's wrong. But I don't know if it's always so clear cut. The example you gave is of course one most people would agree with. But in a less extreme example....who decides if the end goal is virtuous?

    I know, we were already told.....Magneto decides.

    There's going to be differing views about what is a virtuous goal or not, and that's where this all gets muddled.

    Hickman has really created an interesting angle here....much like he did with his New Avengers run, where there are compelling views on both sides. It makes for good reading, and good discussion, and I'm glad he's brought this level of thought to the book.

  2. #1352
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Sure, I get it. You believe that if the end goal is virtuous, then non-virtuous actions in support of that goal are acceptable. I would never say that's wrong. But I don't know if it's always so clear cut. The example you gave is of course one most people would agree with. But in a less extreme example....who decides if the end goal is virtuous?

    I know, we were already told.....Magneto decides.

    There's going to be differing views about what is a virtuous goal or not, and that's where this all gets muddled.

    Hickman has really created an interesting angle here....much like he did with his New Avengers run, where there are compelling views on both sides. It makes for good reading, and good discussion, and I'm glad he's brought this level of thought to the book.
    I actually agree with you but in this case it's pretty clear cut so far. Create your own nation or die horrifically.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  3. #1353
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Then why isn't America letting in the bad hombres or certain people from certain brown countries. Why even have borders. Why can't we all just live as one. Why aren't we letting in the refugees. Let everyone everywhere have open borders.
    Right now, Krakoa is more isolationnist than North Korea.
    That's a stance that is not compatible with the notion of "coexisting".

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    They abstained so it is legal. People abstain all the time. If the dirt on her was so deep that she felt the need to stay quiet and go against her own beliefs that's on her. People dig up first on people and use it for political gain all the time we just don't know the details. Is Trump kit the real president because russians influenced the elections and Hillary got more votes? Doesn't seem to be the case.
    She was mind-controlled, her "abstention" was as fake a vote as it gets, and when word will get out about Emma's treachery - and it absolutely will - there will be dire conséquences to pay for everyone.
    For example, what do you think will happen to that russian ambassador when she's going back to Russia? Ambassadors are the voices of their countries, they carry the will and agenda of said countries. What Emma compelled her to do by essentially turning her vote into an abstention is akin to treason. That woman will be questioned by her own government once she's back and possibly incarcerated as a result if not worse.
    "Who cares" is already the answer I know some people will come up with.
    Well, actions have consequences is my point here. Russia WILL learn about what happened with their ambassador, and it will cause a confrontation between both countries at the very very least, if not worse. And that's just one obvious, glaring outcome.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  4. #1354
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Right now, Krakoa is more isolationnist than North Korea.
    That's a stance that is not compatible with the notion of "coexisting".



    She was mind-controlled, her "abstention" was as fake a vote as it gets, and when word will get out about Emma's treachery - and it absolutely will - there will be dire conséquences to pay for everyone.
    For example, what do you think will happen to that russian ambassador when she's going back to Russia? Ambassadors are the voices of their countries, they carry the will and agenda of said countries. What Emma compelled her to do by essentially turning her vote into an abstention is akin to treason. That woman will be questioned by her own government once she's back and possibly incarcerated as a result if not worse.
    "Who cares" is already the answer I know some people will come up with.
    Well, actions have consequences is my point here. Russia WILL learn about what happened with their ambassador, and it will cause a confrontation between both countries at the very very least, if not worse. And that's just one obvious, glaring outcome.
    And I can see that happening I'm not saying humans shouldn't be worried or afraid but what I am saying is we cant act like 17 million mutants weren't murdered in cold blood and not one country in the mu did anything. We also can't act like every country in the mu isn't experimenting on mutants for their own personal gain. Some would say the very idea of make America great again or America first is isolationism at its best. As of right now Xavier is saying make mutants great again, mutants first.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  5. #1355
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    They abstained so it is legal. People abstain all the time. If the dirt on her was so deep that she felt the need to stay quiet and go against her own beliefs that's on her. People dig up first on people and use it for political gain all the time we just don't know the details. Is Trump kit the real president because russians influenced the elections and Hillary got more votes? Doesn't seem to be the case.
    They abstained due to manipulation by Emma. It is clear she used her powers to stop them vetoing. Hence illegal.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  6. #1356
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    They abstained due to manipulation by Emma. It is clear she used her powers to stop them vetoing. Hence illegal.
    So was Russian interference which was also illegal. We didn't have new elections here. It's politics. Emma was using any means she could just like Trump was using WikiLeaks. I don't see the difference. Influence is influence. Same with brexit, still waiting on that other referendum when we know the people were being manipulated.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  7. #1357
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Right now, Krakoa is more isolationnist than North Korea.
    That's a stance that is not compatible with the notion of "coexisting".
    Huh?????? What gave you that assumption? Not only can the citizens freely leave whenever they want, but Xavier has never expressed that Krakoa stay out of other countries’ problems or not remain connected to the world. Also, we’ve barely seen Krakoa and what we’ve gotten so far definitely contradicts that soooooo...what now?

  8. #1358
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    He's essentially a "might makes right" type of guy rather than "survival of the fittest". He's always going on about "only the strong survive" and all that.

    I think the character has great potential, and when used well, he's quite compelling. I like his usage in this series so far. I really just wish they'd change his look a bit.
    Yes he is great value, but he isn’t ‘might makes right’, that would underplay his philosophy. He is a ‘manifest destiny’ kind of guy. He believes that might makes you superior and that anything less mighty is inferior and should be subjugated or annihilated. He believes that is the natural order of things.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #1359
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    So was Russian interference which was also illegal. We didn't have new elections here. It's politics. Emma was using any means she could just like Trump was using WikiLeaks. I don't see the difference. Influence is influence. Same with brexit, still waiting on that other referendum when we know the people were being manipulated.
    What is this? Mutant apologist week? There is nothing OK about swinging a UN vote using mind control or manipulation.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  10. #1360
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    What is this? Mutant apologist week? There is nothing OK about swinging a UN vote using mind control or manipulation.
    But it happens. We have Republican apology week in real life. We've had Russian apology week by the u.s president himself. Or does seeing both sides.automatically make you an apologist. I wouldn't call people who make excuses or explanations for Trump all racist apologists.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  11. #1361
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    What is this? Mutant apologist week? There is nothing OK about swinging a UN vote using mind control or manipulation.
    The Russian government is an actual villainous organization though.

  12. #1362
    Amazing Member Su_Whist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    What is this? Mutant apologist week? There is nothing OK about swinging a UN vote using mind control or manipulation.
    Or, as Vreenak would say, “It’s a faaaake!”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs

  13. #1363
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Let's not try to equate real world politics to the story. There's so much wrong with the McCarthyist red scare narrative in real life.

    In universe the UN has more power then real life it seems

  14. #1364
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    I have little problem with what the Mutants are doing. They're doing what they have to do to survive and thrive. Anything otherwise would likely lead to another extinction event. Perhaps Krakoa is a long term plan to eventually co-exist.

  15. #1365
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    Speaking of politics, I still don't understand why Brazil was against the mutants or didn't want the drug .

    Is it a reference to the change that the government had in the last elections leaning towards the conservative side?

    Changing the subject I am amazed how anyone is still surprised by the X-men and Xavier crossing the line (for heroes) it's as if they don't even realize that they are desperate after Moira showed the truth anyone would do the same.

    Besides, I don't know any great nation or country that doesn't do exactly what they do or worst.

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