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  1. #1666
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    It's meaningless in the sense that all those ties the X-Men had with nonmutant heroes didn't provide an impetus for those nonmutant heroes, Avengers or not, to lend a hand or raise their voices in protest of the U.S. government repeatedly attempting to violently repress, if not flat-out exterminate, all mutants, including the ones the Avengers and their ilk knew as fellow heroes. They could go to war with each other and the U.S. government over their right to not have to register with said government for the fully rational fear that the government would use them as super-soldiers, superspies, and/or super-assassins for shady causes and agendas, but they somehow couldn't connect or relate that with the government registering mutants to make it easier to repress and exterminate them all. I mean, really, the nonmutant heroes have seen time and again that it wouldn't take all that much for the government and the public to turn against them and treat them the same as mutants have been all these years, so at least for the sake of their own continued survival, maybe they should reconsider their own allegiances.

    Then again, there is a more fundamental disconnect between the X-Men and the rest of the Marvel superheroes. The rest of the Marvel superheroes labor under the delusion that the status quo, while imperfect and flawed, is nonetheless worth preserving for the sake of the public's welfare, even when that public isn't always (or often) grateful for their presence or actions. The X-Men labor under the reality that the status quo is fundamentally inimical to their right to survive, let alone thrive, that humanity as a whole is irrevocably and incorrigibly opposed to their continued existence, and that they are completely and utterly on their own. In the face of that reality, is there anything for them worth trying to defend or uphold or preserve?
    When it comes to the first point, I have and always will consider that to just plain be bad writing, especially with the X-Men and their allies existing in different offices at Marvel somehow preventing heroes from crossing over even in situations that it would make sense. Of course Marvel will try to justify it probably in the same way they justify Spider-Man not dating other superheroes; if they can always have the other heroes on speed dial, it somehow lessens their underdog status.

  2. #1667
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Yeah Iím aware of that. I was making a joke that parades are inherently at least a little bit gay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Each category of person? Well there are intersections of identity, if youíve been barred from mainstream culture then itís fair to create your own culture in your community not only as a means of survival but celebrating something that the majority considers an abomination. Yes, the end goal is representation for all but also the deconstruction of the supposed norm when it comes to race, gender, sexuality. Whiteness, heteronormativity, cisness, maleness are all regarded as the norm that everything is distanced from and that creates prejudice and hatred for ďthe other.Ē If those social constructs are seen as just that, constructs made up to put certain people on a pedestal while dehumanizing others, then that means the validation of all people.

    When the argument stems from, ďif this disadvantaged group gets to have this exclusive club, why canít we? The majority that holds all the power?Ē as the way of thinking then it is equivalent to the straight parade logic. But talking about representation in general doesnít subscribe to that notion, however the question I replied to does.
    Sure, I get that. But I donít think thatís always the case. Itís not always ďoh if you can have an exclusive club than so should we even though most clubs default to being excluaive to usĒ. Sometimes itís just ďwhy do we need to have exclusive clubs?Ē

    I agree that question can come from a place of ignorance, but I donít think it always does. Sometimes I think when we talk about progress in this way, that question is eventually going to come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Idk most of the controversy Iíve seen surrounding Xavier and the X-Menís choices have been from the POV that they arenít being ďheroic.Ē I would appreciate it if the crux of that problem was ďhow far are they willing to go?Ē but most people, at least from my feed, have already categorized mutants siding with Krakoa as villainous.
    Perhaps. But clearly not everything theyíre doing is heroic. I donít see how thatís even a point of contention. Mr. Sinister is responsible for some real horrible stuff. Even if we just limit it to the Morlock Massacre....itís awful. Working with a person like that and granting amnesty to him and his minions who actually carried out the slaughter is in no way heroic.

    I think some of the other things shown in the series have been heroic. Destroying the Mother Mold....creating a haven for mutants. Those are great.

    But there are also unheroic things, and those are what people are questioning. Sabertooth killing innocent men on a mission for Krakoa. Amnesty for the likes of Emplate and Apocalypse. Mentally influencing the Russian delegate.

    Do those things somehow cancel out the good thatís being done? I donít know if thereís an answer to that. Not a single answer, anyway. I think this story is meant to make us ask those kinds of tough to answer questions. I donít think that we can simply label anyone who might consider different answers than we do as being ďanti-mutantĒ or anything like that.

  3. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloxer View Post
    I am 100% not reading all that, but I'll respond to the bits that don't look long winded.
    Can mutants have a nation of their own?
    Sure, I don't care about that, what I do care about is the fact the place looks and operates like a creepy effing cult, where mutants are trying to pretend like they're superior to humans like they don't feel fear, hate, and act irrationally because of those feeling, like mutants are trying to pretend all negative qualities and and things are exclusive to humans, like they didn't evolve from the same cavemen who were spent their time beating rocks together.
    When mutants have killed each other, massacred each other and have tried to wipe each other out without human involvement I'm not interested in hearing that the mutants are superior and can do no wrong because its not true and we all know it.
    This comment looks like another anti mutant (mutist?) just raised his hand

  4. #1669
    Incredible Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    From the comments going on the Avengers are no friends of the X-men apperantly.
    Depends on who's writing them. But we've certainly seen a ton of evidence of them not being great to or for Mutants who aren't serving under them in some capacity.

  5. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    It's meaningless in the sense that all those ties the X-Men had with nonmutant heroes didn't provide an impetus for those nonmutant heroes, Avengers or not, to lend a hand or raise their voices in protest of the U.S. government repeatedly attempting to violently repress, if not flat-out exterminate, all mutants, including the ones the Avengers and their ilk knew as fellow heroes. They could go to war with each other and the U.S. government over their right to not have to register with said government for the fully rational fear that the government would use them as super-soldiers, superspies, and/or super-assassins for shady causes and agendas, but they somehow couldn't connect or relate that with the government registering mutants to make it easier to repress and exterminate them all. I mean, really, the nonmutant heroes have seen time and again that it wouldn't take all that much for the government and the public to turn against them and treat them the same as mutants have been all these years, so at least for the sake of their own continued survival, maybe they should reconsider their own allegiances.

    Then again, there is a more fundamental disconnect between the X-Men and the rest of the Marvel superheroes. The rest of the Marvel superheroes labor under the delusion that the status quo, while imperfect and flawed, is nonetheless worth preserving for the sake of the public's welfare, even when that public isn't always (or often) grateful for their presence or actions. The X-Men labor under the reality that the status quo is fundamentally inimical to their right to survive, let alone thrive, that humanity as a whole is irrevocably and incorrigibly opposed to their continued existence, and that they are completely and utterly on their own. In the face of that reality, is there anything for them worth trying to defend or uphold or preserve?

    Wow, this is sincerely an excellent point and I never thought about it that way. Of course there are the “meta” reasons this hasn’t happened but the end result is exactly what you described above.
    Last edited by Jness; 09-21-2019 at 06:29 PM.

  6. #1671
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    I try to stay on the forums here but the hate is just driving me away again, especially since some posters have admitted being IRL misanthropes eating up the Hickman direction like ambrosia.
    Genkai nante nai
    (No limits)
    Zettai nante nai
    (No absolutes)

  7. #1672
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    When it comes to the first point, I have and always will consider that to just plain be bad writing, especially with the X-Men and their allies existing in different offices at Marvel somehow preventing heroes from crossing over even in situations that it would make sense. Of course Marvel will try to justify it probably in the same way they justify Spider-Man not dating other superheroes; if they can always have the other heroes on speed dial, it somehow lessens their underdog status.
    Yeah, it is bad writing, but it is what we're stuck with, that canonically, no one who wasn't a mutant ever lifted a finger or a voice to do anything about the injustices inflicted upon mutants, and those mutants that did fight against those injustices were demonized even when they were trying to protect humans as well as mutants. The rest of the hero community is as much accomplice to mutants' suffering as the outright and overtly genocidal human bigots, because they did nothing in the face of those bigots' efforts to snuff out mutantkind. The X-Men might've turned their backs on the human race and their former heroic allies, but said heroic allies turned their backs on them first.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #1673
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    It's meaningless in the sense that all those ties the X-Men had with nonmutant heroes didn't provide an impetus for those nonmutant heroes, Avengers or not, to lend a hand or raise their voices in protest of the U.S. government repeatedly attempting to violently repress, if not flat-out exterminate, all mutants, including the ones the Avengers and their ilk knew as fellow heroes. They could go to war with each other and the U.S. government over their right to not have to register with said government for the fully rational fear that the government would use them as super-soldiers, superspies, and/or super-assassins for shady causes and agendas, but they somehow couldn't connect or relate that with the government registering mutants to make it easier to repress and exterminate them all. I mean, really, the nonmutant heroes have seen time and again that it wouldn't take all that much for the government and the public to turn against them and treat them the same as mutants have been all these years, so at least for the sake of their own continued survival, maybe they should reconsider their own allegiances.

    Then again, there is a more fundamental disconnect between the X-Men and the rest of the Marvel superheroes. The rest of the Marvel superheroes labor under the delusion that the status quo, while imperfect and flawed, is nonetheless worth preserving for the sake of the public's welfare, even when that public isn't always (or often) grateful for their presence or actions. The X-Men labor under the reality that the status quo is fundamentally inimical to their right to survive, let alone thrive, that humanity as a whole is irrevocably and incorrigibly opposed to their continued existence, and that they are completely and utterly on their own. In the face of that reality, is there anything for them worth trying to defend or uphold or preserve?
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    If they're going to stand by and do nothing in the face of continued mutant oppression and attempts at genocide against mutants by the U.S. government and other authorities, then they're crummy friends.
    Well then it seems we are going down the road of AvX3 Hickman at the wheel and given that in TRO he had Steve and Stark killing each other while the world ended (and Steve's head was on fire) it will a litelral bloody mess.

  9. #1674
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Not AVX anymore. It will be MVX, MARVEL vs XMEN.

    Genkai nante nai
    (No limits)
    Zettai nante nai
    (No absolutes)

  10. #1675
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jness View Post
    N


    Wow, this is sincerely an excellent point and I never thought about it that way. Of course there are the “meta” reasons this hasn’t happened but the end result is exactly what you described above.
    Thanks. I appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    Well then it seems we are going down the road of AvX3 Hickman at the wheel and given that in TRO he had Steve and Stark killing each other while the world ended (and Steve's head was on fire) it will a litelral bloody mess.
    I should mention that if that happens, it'll likely be not just the X-Men vs. the Avengers, but all of mutantkind vs. humanity (and humanity's superhuman champions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    Not AVX anymore. It will be MVX, MARVEL vs XMEN.

    As a fan of Fate/stay night, thanks for the reference. It is a very good point, though, and X-Men vs. the Marvel Universe would be an epic showdown.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #1676
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    I posted the video because that's how the argument for Hickman's "X-Men" has gone to. The opposing views will never find middle ground now, so we're reduced to that pithy catchphrase.

    "Just because you're CORRECT doesn't mean you're RIGHT! I don't need any of your reasoning!"

    Those who still argue for "heroic integrationists" are Shirou Emiya, and those who revel in the "pragmatic dominant species" are Archer(?)
    Last edited by Londo Bellian; 09-21-2019 at 05:40 PM.
    Genkai nante nai
    (No limits)
    Zettai nante nai
    (No absolutes)

  12. #1677
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Thatís one thing about this run thatís been bothering me. Itís treated the whole human/mutant thing as black and white but what about the gray? What about the humans who have either always been supporters of mutantkind or those who have come around to see their original prejudices were wrong? Not everyone of humanity has wronged mutants (in fact, they have quite a few friends) so why is it that humanity as a whole is treated like they are all trash while all mutants are treated as though their crap donít stink? Where exactly is the line drawn?
    Well I think thereís plenty of gray in this story. As has been covered plenty in this thread, the X-Men have done or been involved in some questionable stuff. They arenít pure heroes. Or at the very least, their leaders are not.

    And the humans that we have seen have been fairly reasonably portrayed. The FF came across as concerned allies. Dr. Gregorís goal was to prevent the extinction of a species. She once did that for mutants after the decimation, but now she is doing it for humans. Obviously, her methods are questionable, and we didnít get many other Orchis charactersí points of view besides Erasmus and Karima. Erasmus didnít offer much beyond loyalty to his wife and their cause. Karima, a former ally of the X-Men seemed to view the Krakoa plan as a questionable one.

    Far less mustache twirling, genocidal maniacs than how the human adversaries are normally portrayed in X-Men comics. And I think it works on two levels because it makes them a little more relatable. But then that almost makes it worse because itís a more insidious kind of adversary.

    So I think there has been plenty of gray in this story.

    What we havenít gotten is much in the way of humans who are allies, or mutants who are dissenters. But that seems deliberate as a means of helping establish the new status quo.

  13. #1678
    "Comics journalism"? Filthy Mutie's Avatar
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    Found an extremely good, topical thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/excel522/status/...326071296?s=19

    Highly recommend!

  14. #1679
    Incredible Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    I posted the video because that's how the argument for Hickman's "X-Men" has gone to. The opposing views will never find middle ground now, so we're reduced to that pithy catchphrase.
    Another poster and I were disagreeing but found common ground about Karima. Sorry you missed it.

  15. #1680
    Amazing Member Bloxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, it is bad writing, but it is what we're stuck with, that canonically, no one who wasn't a mutant ever lifted a finger or a voice to do anything about the injustices inflicted upon mutants, and those mutants that did fight against those injustices were demonized even when they were trying to protect humans as well as mutants. The rest of the hero community is as much accomplice to mutants' suffering as the outright and overtly genocidal human bigots, because they did nothing in the face of those bigots' efforts to snuff out mutantkind. The X-Men might've turned their backs on the human race and their former heroic allies, but said heroic allies turned their backs on them first.
    That's BS and we all know it, I'm not gonna sit here and blame the Avengers for everything that happened to mutants because the X-Men's own writers won't let them be involved in any meaningful way.

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