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  1. #1921
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Krakoa might be the best thing for mutants but holding out candy (Krakoan gifts) with one hand while holding a Katana in the other isn't the way to achieve peace love and harmony. Remember how the Civil War started?
    That is now many nations got started. It’s also a key principle of armed struggle that when it is time to offer terms the arms are not put aside whilst holding out the hand of peace.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  2. #1922
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Not what he said. He effectively said “Krakoa is ours” nation building, not exclusion zone making. I wouldn’t have allowed those ambassadors into a disputed territory either. Doesn’t mean for example as some people have asked that Shogo can’t live on the island, or that trusted people can’t visit.

    Until the book actually says this let’s assume it’s not what was intended.

    Magneto said it loud and clear... "Man is not welcomed there". Yet, and quite ironically mutants reserve the right to plant gateways around the globe giving them absolute freedom to go anywhere on Earth they please anytime they want (I.e., Jerusalem for example) which is highly hypocritical.

  3. #1923
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    That is now many nations got started. It’s also a key principle of armed struggle that when it is time to offer terms the arms are not put aside whilst holding out the hand of peace.
    Well, that does explain why the nations of the world are developing bio-weapons while pointing nukes at each other. Sadly, once one is launched by either side the whole world dies. That's no way to peacefully negotiate...
    Last edited by Shreene; 09-23-2019 at 04:01 AM.

  4. #1924
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post

    Magneto said it loud and clear... "Man is not welcomed there". Yet, and quite ironically mutants reserve the right to plant gateways around the globe giving them absolute freedom to go anywhere on Earth they please anytime they want (I.e., Jerusalem for example) which is highly hypocritical.
    That's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be saying you believe anyone has the right to go anywhere they choose, and then making your island mutant only.

  5. #1925
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    So...

    Xavier has always used Cerebro to download and back-up full copies of the memories, personality and 'soul' of every mutant on the planet. We know it's actually possible to 'download' and preserve minds in this way since we've seen Jean Grey do it for Xavier during Morrison's run, back when Cassandra Nova hijacked his body. OTOH she was only able to do it because she was Phoenix-powered and she was able to use the minds of every human being on the planet as temporary storage for her mind-sized data dump, and even then the scale of the task was melting her brain down for the entirety of the few minutes she was bringing him back together. For Cerebro to be able to store every mutant mind..... damn, that's going to need some major storage capacity. Given that the Mansion and Cerebro itself have been destroyed multiple times, where the hell did Xavier have his servers, and how huge must they be?

    That aside, since every mutant mind got copied, including Xavier's own, my suspicion is that every back-up he stored prior to New X-Men must have included a full copy of the Cassandra Nova personality buried inside his psyche. At some point in time before HoX#1, the Cassandra personae broke free of the Xavier psyche stored within Cerebro, 'adjusted' every other mind stored in there to imprint devoted loyalty to 'Xavier', then when the chance came up (perhaps when Xavier was logging-in to update his own back-up, used the Cerebro helmet as a conduit to overwrite Xavier's mind and take over his body herself.

    That's why 'Xavier' has been so creepy. That's why the Cerebro helmet stays on permanently (preventing any other mutant from accessing the power). That's why Xavier has been seen dressed as Cassandra and why, in certain unguarded moments of great glee, Xavier has been so 'fabulous'. It's not Charles who's in charge of this Krakoa experiment, it's Cassandra.

    Q) But why would a woman who wants all mutants exterminated send the X-Men to destroy the Mother-Mold?

    A) Did she? Or did she send a sacrificial team out to ensure that the Mother-Mold was activated - before - it had achieved maturity? Orchis, with its plan to develop 'ethically sound' Sentinels purely as a defensive measure, was a threat to Cassandra's long-term scheme and had to go. I'm sure that in the wake of this attack the voices of HAMMER, Hydra and more hardcore elements from SHIELD and AIM are coming to the fore. Plus the Mother-Mold certainly seemed pretty confident that its plunge into the Sun wasn't the end of its genocidal dream... I wonder where it downloaded itself to.
    In addition, Mystique's uncharacteristic bafflement and lack of veteran smarts on board the Sol's Hammer looks to me like someone carrying out a powerful telepathic imperative followed by a mind-wipe. What was she planting on the Orchis base, and why? Maybe a Krakoa flower that human scientists could investigate and retro-engineer? All the better to sabotage Xavier's hopeful plan for a Mutant Nation.

    Cassandra operating as Xavier would also explain why she's gathering all the mutants (including the villains) on Krakoa. One target for mass genocide instead of having to hunt the last few surviving mutants and eliminate them piecemeal. So much more elegant, this way.

    And it would explain why Jean Grey seems to be rocking a pre-Phoenix, even pre-All New X-Men personae, complete with reversion to the Marvel Girl moniker. Cassandra has only given her limited and/edited memories, because having reviewed the occasions the original 'Cassandra Nova' was taken down, adult and authoritative Jean Grey was responsible for most of them.

    Cassandra is turning Xavier's Dream for the X-Men into a xenophobic nightmare that humanity is going to have no choice but to stamp out. By the end of HoX/PoX we might have seen her succeed, in this version of reality anyway.


    All that said, I'm still sure this is Life 10 and Moira is going to reboot this failed reality one last time in order to bring about the 616 Universe where her last ditch scheme is to let everyone do their thing without her advice while she concentrates on subverting the Sentinel AI programming to make them evolve into allies of mutantkind.

  6. #1926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cochese View Post
    That's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be saying you believe anyone has the right to go anywhere they choose, and then making your island mutant only.
    I stand corrected. Nevertheless, mutants can go wherever they please on Earth and baseline humans can not. And, on a side note... Where do the Inhumans, Eternals, Asgardians, and all the other races fit in all of this?
    Last edited by Shreene; 09-23-2019 at 04:10 AM.

  7. #1927
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    That would be too reminiscent of the Xornetto reveal.

  8. #1928
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post

    Magneto said it loud and clear... "Man is not welcomed there". Yet, and quite ironically mutants reserve the right to plant gateways around the globe giving them absolute freedom to go anywhere on Earth they please anytime they want (I.e., Jerusalem for example) which is highly hypocritical.
    I have already put forward the theory that Man in this case is very clearly a reference to Mankind. To read it as “any non-mutant ever under any circumstances” is to misrepresent what he said. To then build upon this flimsy platform theories about what is happening and what it all means is just a house of cards. We need to wait and see how this is expressed in the future.

    I am happy to speculate but this argument is becoming more than that. It’s becoming a weird form of identity politics for a metaphor that has never been stable and always open to interpretation.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #1929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Good thing they haven't shown us blanket amnesty, yet. You're jumping the gun. The book ended moments after the villains arrived. Let's. see. what. happens. :-) If next issue the villains are playing on tire swings and cannonballing into lakes, then we can discuss blanket amnesty.

    I haven't seen Sabretooth since the trial. Have you? There's a reason Hickman made a big show of his trial and the FF's reaction to Scott. The FF clearly do not have faith that the mutants know how to handle their criminals. Let's see if they're right.
    Somehow, I don't see any of those villains in restraints next issues, or being held accountable.
    The terms of the Amnesty seems clear: as long as they respect the rules established on Krakoa they are free to live there, with anything prior that forgotten.
    They didn't show up to be trialed or thrown in prison.
    Now Creed committed murders while on a secret mission for Magneto & Xavier. We'll see if he'll be punished for what he did indeed. But given the FF know, like everyone on the planet it seems, that the Amnesty is applied to every mutants, including super-criminals, including the kind to have massacred thousands of people in the past, their lack of faith is both understandable and justified. It's like those lives lost didn't matter to Xavier and it's jarring.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Again sentinels came before any large scale mutant attack sooo
    Sentinels were in play back in ancient times when Selene and Apocalypse were doing all their killings? The THINGS you learn on this forum, that's astounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Your pragmatic view on a day's old nation is on the same line of telling a person their privilege won't get them everything they want Humans have noo right to judge Krakoa as most countries are founded by unscrupulous people and the bloodshed of others.
    Oh yes, other countries have had bloody act of births, shameful in some cases even. Absolutely. And if this thread was about the founding of France, or the founding of the US, or what have you, I would hold the same pragmatic view as you put it toward them. But this thread and this comicbook is about the beginning of the nation of Krakoa, so I'm scrutinizing the nation of Krakoa.
    Surprising, I know.
    Also, the comparison you made is yours to make, but I'm not impressed by it just so you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Hers a Bible quote for ya "how can you remove ta speck of dust from your friends eye when there's a wooden plank in yours"
    Or something like that
    Excellent piece of advice, I'm afraid I'm gonna stand by what I said previously though.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  10. #1930
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I have already put forward the theory that Man in this case is very clearly a reference to Mankind. To read it as “any non-mutant ever under any circumstances” is to misrepresent what he said. To then build upon this flimsy platform theories about what is happening and what it all means is just a house of cards. We need to wait and see how this is expressed in the future.

    I am happy to speculate but this argument is becoming more than that. It’s becoming a weird form of identity politics for a metaphor that has never been stable and always open to interpretation.
    Wait... Are you saying a mutant born of two baseline humans is not to be considered as being of mankind? What about two mutants who give birth to a baseline human?

  11. #1931
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    I stand corrected. Nevertheless, mutants can go wherever they please on Earth and baseline humans can not. And, on a side note... Where do the Inhumans, Eternals, Asgardians, and all the other races fit in all of this?
    Gah! Why would it be up to the Mutants to figure out? In the neighborhood you live in can you walk into any of the houses whenever you like?
    Geeez reading the comments I'd be scared of telling some of these posters "No"
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #1932
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Well, that does explain why the nations of the world are developing bio-weapons while pointing nukes at each other. Sadly, once one is launched by either side the whole world dies. That's no way to peacefully negotiate...

    Personally I wonder if Hickman has been reading Régis Debray on Mediology. There is a lot of work being put into the various means of building a culture, and Debray (and many of the revolutionary left) used to talk about technological innovation being potentially part of cultural identity. He also believed we moved culturally through three stages from idols to icons to vision, arguing we were in a visionary stage. Which was of course compatible with his left wing revolutionary stance.

    So in comic book terms we would have moved from god like superheroes to relatable but iconic heroes to visionary heroes. So maybe Krakoa is an example of a new visionary superheroic approach. Not just as a dream but as a reality.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  13. #1933
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Wait... Are you saying a mutant born of two baseline humans is not to be considered as being of mankind? What about two mutants who give birth to a baseline human?

    What? Is this some clever joke I don’t get?
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #1934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    That would be too reminiscent of the Xornetto reveal.
    The reveal that took place in the same run that introduced Cassandra Nova, mass Sentinel genocide on a mutant-run island nation and mutants proudly stepping forward with their own culture and celebrities, including one who seems to making a return in the DoX era?

    Pastiche or homage?

  15. #1935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    I stand corrected. Nevertheless, mutants can go wherever they please on Earth and baseline humans can not. And, on a side note... Where do the Inhumans, Eternals, Asgardians, and all the other races fit in all of this?
    But humans can go whenever they want. Except the main island of Krakoa.

    The other non-human races fit whenever it's established in the story after we see where they stand in relation to Krakoa.

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