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  1. #871
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The moral gray area and ominous ambiguity are the points of the run. It feels like both a cult and a revolution and it is both uplifting and foreboding. Some people don't like ambiguity in books where they've gotten used to baseball games at the school and the same old schlock.
    Agreed. Hickman intentionally created this world with that moral grey area being laced through out. There is no clear cut good or bad guy to me. Granted yes the X-men are the “heroes” of the book but they’ve obviously done some questionable things in this series specifically Xavier. I don’t really see how that’s debatable because I feel like that’s the angle Hickman was going for. This isn’t the “X-men “ we grew up with. It’s pretty much the natural evolution of a group of people being persecuted for so long. Desperation sets in and suddenly there are no lines that can’t be crossed....Such as Xavier pretty much sacrificing students, being ok with Emma Frost mind controlling humans and having no issues with Sabretooth running free among other things.

  2. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    that's my main problem. With all Storm is doing for wakanda he should have signed it on good faith. But someone in the storm thread said it proably only relates to the drugs (Which could be possible) but that doesn't really make sense to me. Not only that it is listed in red and the nations we know for a fact either worshipped storm or she is you know, princess of, are taking their cue from wakanda so for me it just makes them seem ungrateful.

    They need to make this more clear.
    Wakanda's foreign policy is not beholden to the whims of Storm. They are a sovereign nation that will do whatever is best for their national interests. Besides as was stated they don't have any need for the mutant drugs. Wakanda is the most advanced nation on the planet, the mutants can't offer them anything because they don't need anything from Karkoa. T'challa is the most tactical and strategic mind on the planet, am sure he is watching events unfold and planning accordingly. He probably has several contingency plans drawn up to deal with the mutant nation of Krakoa in case hostilities break out. And just like Ororo will put mutants before T'challa and Wakanda so will T'challa put Wakanda before Ororo and mutants on Krakoa. At best both nations will have a tentative non-aggression pact.

  3. #873
    Sad & Brazilian PrezValentine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The moral gray area and ominous ambiguity are the points of the run. It feels like both a cult and a revolution and it is both uplifting and foreboding. Some people don't like ambiguity in books where they've gotten used to baseball games at the school and the same old schlock.
    People can't handle the fact that the X-Men are diving into make-believe politics and want to skip to the super-hero stuff.

    It's a fantasy world, but the mutant plight has been there for decades. At some point, someone was going to address the fact that the approach needs to be more complex than just murder robots, time travel and extinction events. And now we're getting into the muddy path that leads into establishing and developing a country. This kind of stuff isn't supposed to be looked with a black-and-white vision, the same way that you can't just look at historical figures like just heroes and villains, except for people like Hitler. And Xavier is pretty far from going down an actually villainous path.
    Hunting's no fun when your prey doesn't move.

  4. #874
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    This issue is something else. Curious about how Logan gets his adamantium back. More curious on how having all the bad guys in one place is gonna play out.
    You brought back Wolverine

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  5. #875
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    He sure does!



    (The phalanx reference... Hickman's run is basically the spiritual sucessor to Gillen's isn't it)
    Gillen went in so raw; he's probably banned from X-Men.
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  6. #876
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Going through all these pages was tough, but I wanted to see as many opinions as possible. Anyway...

    I think the cult imagery is on purpose. Let's keep in mind that many religions, secret societies, sororities, and social movements do behave like cults, especially just looking at the dictionary definition of what a cult is. I know people are using the word to paint a negative image but why should we? Mutants all over are finally having their own nation-state, their own place to come home, their own home, their own language and culture. They're gonna behave and do things differently than humans and Hickman is emphasising that. Calling their ceremony cult-like in a derogatory sense is just an ad hominem attack because it's different.

    And saying that it's no different than white nationalist groups or whatever bigoted group because replacing Storm with a white nationalist/nazi and the word "mutant" with any other is a weak argument, because that's exactly the kind that's been used against gay pride, black pride/power and feminists movements.

    Oh what if I said "Straight Pride" huh? You would say I'm a homophobe!

    Why does it have to be "Black Lives Matter"? What if I said "White Lives Matter"? Why can't it be "All Lives Matter"?

    *see any anti-feminist arguments from so called "meninist" or "men's rights activists"*

    I think what Hickman is doing is meant to make us question our own internalised prejudices and possible bigotry. He's really trying to make us think how would we feel--as a human regardless of gender, race, religion, sexuality, ethnicity, nationality, social status, etc.--if an "other" suddenly had more power and started shifting the power dynamics in unprecedented ways?

    I don't know about other X-Men comics because I've never read them, but knowing that mutants were supposed to be a (quite pale, sometimes incorrect and borderline insulting) allegory of the Civil Rights Movement, I don't think anything has ever come this close to be this relevant, this affecting, and this powerful before.

  7. #877
    Time Police BishopsJuice91's Avatar
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    If you accept resurrections in comics then I donít see how you canít except this as being anything different...

  8. #878
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    People can't handle the fact that the X-Men are diving into make-believe politics and want to skip to the super-hero stuff.

    It's a fantasy world, but the mutant plight has been there for decades. At some point, someone was going to address the fact that the approach needs to be more complex than just murder robots, time travel and extinction events. And now we're getting into the muddy path that leads into establishing and developing a country. This kind of stuff isn't supposed to be looked with a black-and-white vision, the same way that you can't just look at historical figures like just heroes and villains, except for people like Hitler. And Xavier is pretty far from going down an actually villainous path.
    Perfectly said. You could make a supporting argument for humans or for mutants and thatís about as real world as a comic can get. There is no cut and dry hero or villain in this story. Hickman has done a beautiful job with that.

  9. #879
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    "Is that what our founding father Xavier intended when he wrote "lol just resurrect 'em" into the Constitution? For mutantkind to just vape 24/7?"

  10. #880
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Wakanda's foreign policy is not beholden to the whims of Storm. They are a sovereign nation that will do whatever is best for their national interests. Besides as was stated they don't have any need for the mutant drugs. Wakanda is the most advanced nation on the planet, the mutants can't offer them anything because they don't need anything from Karkoa. T'challa is the most tactical and strategic mind on the planet, am sure he is watching events unfold and planning accordingly. He probably has several contingency plans drawn up to deal with the mutant nation of Krakoa in case hostilities break out. And just like Ororo will put mutants before T'challa and Wakanda so will T'challa put Wakanda before Ororo and mutants on Krakoa. At best both nations will have a tentative non-aggression pact.
    I don’t know why this is a difficult idea for some. The way Coates has been writing their relationship it’s pretty clear that T’Challa and Storm understand that while they love each other, they have other loyalties. Wakanda going down this path and leaving his feelings for Storm out of it is as legitimate as Storm leaving Wakanda to help set up Krakoa. This whole thing is probably just a convenient way of breaking them up so T’Challa could be with Nakia and/or the X-Men can fight the Avengers.

  11. #881
    Incredible Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Such as Xavier pretty much sacrificing students, being ok with Emma Frost mind controlling humans and having no issues with Sabretooth running free among other things.
    The first is correct, but that's always been him. We don't know that Emma did mind control anyone for sure, and he was warning her of the consequences. She reacted coyly so it's left ambiguous. And where did you see Creed running free?

  12. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    People can't handle the fact that the X-Men are diving into make-believe politics and want to skip to the super-hero stuff.

    It's a fantasy world, but the mutant plight has been there for decades. At some point, someone was going to address the fact that the approach needs to be more complex than just murder robots, time travel and extinction events. And now we're getting into the muddy path that leads into establishing and developing a country. This kind of stuff isn't supposed to be looked with a black-and-white vision, the same way that you can't just look at historical figures like just heroes and villains, except for people like Hitler. And Xavier is pretty far from going down an actually villainous path.
    Exactly! We finally have someone saying “what does it *really* mean to be a mutant?” And now we’ve got it. Other superheroes teaming up with mutants should be a big deal given the established prejudices in the MU vs an everyday occurrence. Now it’s coming together and I’m excited!

  13. #883
    Incredible Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I missed where this was explained. Which issue and scene?
    EDIT: Found it.

    25tyjys.jpg
    Last edited by Jbenito; 09-18-2019 at 05:55 PM.

  14. #884
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    I just want to see one mutant just think this whole thing is insane. Someone has to think that, but who will it be?

  15. #885
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Wakanda's foreign policy is not beholden to the whims of Storm. They are a sovereign nation that will do whatever is best for their national interests. Besides as was stated they don't have any need for the mutant drugs. Wakanda is the most advanced nation on the planet, the mutants can't offer them anything because they don't need anything from Karkoa. T'challa is the most tactical and strategic mind on the planet, am sure he is watching events unfold and planning accordingly. He probably has several contingency plans drawn up to deal with the mutant nation of Krakoa in case hostilities break out. And just like Ororo will put mutants before T'challa and Wakanda so will T'challa put Wakanda before Ororo and mutants on Krakoa. At best both nations will have a tentative non-aggression pact.
    I completely agree and Storm is not beholden to wakanda as you said but she is doing quite a bit for wakanda and it's productivity right now in the marvel universe and the favor imo should returned. Also i think a problem will arise because the conflict is too great not too and wakanda are the perfect people to "call karoka out." In this situation only really an all black nation like wakanda can get away with calling the mutants out because they can just as easily say well we are treated different outside of wakanda because the world sees us a black. But also with that they should understand the flip side of it. So there is definitely going to be some clashing there imo.
    Last edited by jwatson; 09-18-2019 at 05:54 PM.
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