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  1. #2311
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    Surely you see the dissonance in this... what Hickman is doing falls in the realm of subjective taste, while hair in food is objectively not meant to be there, and medical malpractice and obviously reason to sue.

    The money you pay for a comic doesn’t entitle you to dictate the story. It doesn’t make it a defective product just because you don’t enjoy an aspect of it that other people reasonably would enjoy. Mischaracterization would have to be pretty wild for it to be anything like a comic equivalent of medical malpractice.... like, I don’t know, if the covers were the same and everything inside was about Jean starting a jam band in Des Moines and never mentioning being a mutant? It might take less than that, but you get my point!
    But who dictates the story? Fans who are not happy express their displeasure & other self-righteous fans act as though it's unreasonable that many are disappointed with less than good characterization & lecture others on how they ought to be seeing it..

    Like mentioned earlier, everyone has an excuse or dismissal of others when they're getting their way. But when something comes they don't like, they'll be just as salty & vocal. It's normal when you're disappointed about anything. Now what it takes to disappoint you is another matter.

    Hickman isn’t contradicting X-Men Red, all that stuff still happened. The situation is different enough that 1:1 behavior doesn’t necessarily apply, though everyone’s suspension of disbelief will be different. The main thing is that X-Men Red was specifically made to be a Jean spotlight above all else, and likely always had a finite amount of time to do what it needed to do. Hickman is using Jean as a member of an ensemble that he has years of plans for, so he can’t have her solving everything in her first issues. I totally understand if her role so far hasn’t been gratifying in the same way as other character-specific fandoms have felt serviced, but I think that’s a long way from saying he’s failing in his duties or misusing the character. She’s already been featured more than a lot of major characters, which suggests to me that she’s a part of Hickman’s long term plans even if she hasn’t gotten any showstopping moments yet.
    Personally I think he has contradicted Red because the Jean here wouldn't have done anything she did in Red. The Jean here has zero backbone & has to beg junior characters for help with said character telling her to grow a pair. lol So really it can be argued that's two of Hickman's favs. that have shown Jean up. In which case, I can still understand her fans' valid complaints. lol

    Again, for me if a run no longer has any effect on the characters, isn't acknowledged, and has contradictory characterization that didn't match anything they did previously, the that last run is basically filler & serves no purpose anymore. I say that about liked & disliked runs.

    Constantly changing rules & characters whenever it's convenient makes most stories feel shallow & disconnected as if they have nothing to do with each other. Basically like episodes of Courage the Cowardly Dog or Family Guy where the next episode has noting to do with the previous & those events no longer matter or count.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 09-26-2019 at 10:45 AM.

  2. #2312
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    I hate Bendis (as a writer) with a huge passion. Along with Jason Aaron, Loeb, Daniel Way, Greg Pak, Charles Soule, Howard Chaykin, and Paul Cornell, to name a few. lol

    I don't hate Hickman but I'm not blown away either. Far as characters go, he's 50/50 for me. I still prefer Bunn to Hickman so far.
    I'm trying to wrap my brain around liking Cullen Bunn more than Greg Pak, and I'm having a hard time with it.

  3. #2313
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Fake news.

    Attachment 87523
    Gimmie thighs.

  4. #2314
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I'm trying to wrap my brain around liking Cullen Bunn more than Greg Pak, and I'm having a hard time with it.
    The big reason.
    Bunn wrote all my favorites with depth & legit story
    Pak ruined all of my favorites with lack of depth & mischaracterization.

    Under Bunn all of them were serious characters with good development. Under Pak all of them were complete jokes & utterly incompetent parodies. Examples
    • If Sabretooth is one of your comedy relief characters & is so dumb he doesn't know how to hunt or use a keyboard, you fucked up somewhere.
    • If your Monet is so pathetic she can be mind-controlled by Mentallo after training with Emma Frost, you screwed up somewhere.
    • If Omega Red is so weak he almost gets killed by tigers, you messed up something.
    • If your Domino is an airhead who robs banks to get money, you messed up somewhere.
    • If your Deadpool is Jar Jark Binks, you're way off.
    • If your Deathstrike says in issue 27 "Look, I finally got to do something", then you just suck. lol

    I'm still pissed my favs went from Bunn to Pak when he didn't have 1/4 of the ideas & developments Bunn did. Far as X-books go, Bunncanny was miles better than Weapon X. Even Pak said nobody at Marvel cared about that series -and neither did he given his writing. lol

    Aside from Omega & Deathstrike, who he never wrote, Bunn did all these other characters justice in fewer issues than Pak did in 2 years. I still theorize he only used Weapon X to launch his Hulk stuff but was stuck with the main characters after that was finished.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 09-26-2019 at 11:04 AM.

  5. #2315
    Bad Guy CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    The big reason.
    Bunn wrote all my favorites with depth & legit story
    Pak ruined all of my favorites.

    Under Bunn all of them were serious characters with good development. Under Pak all of them were complete jokes & utterly incompetent parodies. Examples
    • If Sabretooth is one of your comedy relief characters & is so dumb he doesn't know how to hunt or use a keyboard, you fucked up somewhere.
    • If your Monet is so pathetic she can be mind-controlled by Mentallo after training with Emma Frost, you screwed up somewhere.
    • If Omega Red is so weak he almost gets killed by tigers, you messed up something.
    • If your Domino is an airhead who robs banks to get money, you messed up somewhere.
    • If your Deadpool is Jar Jark Binks, you're way off.

    I'm still pissed my favs went from Bunn to Pak when he didn't have 1/4 of the ideas & developments Bunn did. Far as X-books go, Bunncanny was miles better than Weapon X imo, a book even Pak said nobody at Marvel cared about. And neither did he given his writing. lol Aaside from Omega, who he never wrote, Bunn did all the characters I mentioned more justice in fewer issues than Pak did in 2 years.
    God your post makes me miss Bunn so much on X-Men. Especially his Magneto.

    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I'm trying to wrap my brain around liking Cullen Bunn more than Greg Pak, and I'm having a hard time with it.
    It's a no brainier for me.
    Last edited by CoCoBandz; 09-26-2019 at 11:01 AM.

  6. #2316
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I'm trying to wrap my brain around liking Cullen Bunn more than Greg Pak, and I'm having a hard time with it.
    No doubt Cullen is better than Pak
    Zethrimon unblock me

  7. #2317
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Yeah. Pak's X-Work is pretty bad.
    "Cable was right!"

  8. #2318
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    God your post makes me miss Bunn so much on X-Men. Especially his Magneto.
    Yep. Sadly the days of Bunn are gone, and all his stories rendered filler because it's ignored afterwards. Outside of de-Emplating Monet. Emplate's on Krakoa now. We'll see if anything from Buncanny comes up.

  9. #2319
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Yeah. Pak's X-Work is pretty bad.
    We'll always have Magneto Testament.

  10. #2320
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    So just because Weapon X was bad, I'm supposed to ignore all his Hercules, Incredible Hulk, Amadeus Cho, Magneto: Testament, Red Skull ...? Pak has written more than his fair share of modern Marvel classics.


    Magneto was perhaps the only book by Bunn that wasn't mediocre. He's a nice guy and I like him, so it doesn't give me pleasure to say that.

  11. #2321
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    You don't have to ignore anything. But I don't read his other stuff. I read his Weapon X because characters I liked were appearing there and he screwed up every last one of them. So he failed where it counted for me and Bunn didn't. lol

    Again that comes with being a character-driven person. If you do disservice to characters I like, you're blacklisted for me. If you can do well by characters I like, then I love you. lol

    I like Ed Brisson over Pak since he wrote a better Creed & Domino in 2 limited series than Pak in 31 book issues & 2 years.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 09-26-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  12. #2322
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    But who dictates the story? Fans who are not happy express their displeasure & other self-righteous fans act as though it's unreasonable that many are disappointed with less than good characterization & lecture others on how they ought to be seeing it..

    Like mentioned earlier, everyone has an excuse or dismissal of others when they're getting their way. But when something comes they don't like, they'll be just as salty & vocal. It's normal when you're disappointed about anything. Now what it takes to disappoint you is another matter.



    Personally I think he has contradicted Red because the Jean here wouldn't have done anything she did in Red. The Jean here has zero backbone & has to beg junior characters for help with said character telling her to grow a pair. lol So really it can be argued that's two of Hickman's favs. that have shown Jean up. In which case, I can still understand her fans' valid complaints. lol

    Again, for me if a run no longer has any effect on the characters, isn't acknowledged, and has contradictory characterization that didn't match anything they did previously, the that last run is basically filler & serves no purpose anymore. I say that about liked & disliked runs.

    Constantly changing rules & characters whenever it's convenient makes most stories feel shallow & disconnected as if they have nothing to do with each other. Basically like episodes of Courage the Cowardly Dog or Family Guy where the next episode has noting to do with the previous & those events no longer matter or count.
    Well said. When you are on top, you don't care for the people below you. It's good for you so why people are complaining?
    I know very well people are liking Hickman and I have been liking his story too. But it is clear he is playing favorites, like every x-men writer on the last 20 years and it is what is killing the franchise.
    I don't read for favorites, but I also don't read for a writer favorites.
    Still worried about one story that can derail a whole character
    Last edited by spirit2011; 09-26-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  13. #2323
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    You didn't complain about writer favourites when Tom Taylor (and then Thompson/Brisson/Rosenberg) did it.

  14. #2324
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    You didn't complain about writer favourites when Tom Taylor (and then Thompson/Brisson/Rosenberg) did it.
    Jean isn't a favorite from Taylor or Thompson or Brisson or Rosenberg
    Zethrimon unblock me

  15. #2325
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    But who dictates the story? Fans who are not happy express their displeasure & other self-righteous fans act as though it's unreasonable that many are disappointed with less than good characterization & lecture others on how they ought to be seeing it..

    Like mentioned earlier, everyone has an excuse or dismissal of others when they're getting their way. But when something comes they don't like, they'll be just as salty & vocal. It's normal when you're disappointed about anything. Now what it takes to disappoint you is another matter.
    There is a difference between expressing displeasure and thinking writer/marvel has it out for the character. There is a difference between expressing displeasure and blaming another character for your favorite no being used. There is a certain understanding that you are not the only fan in the world and you don't speak for every fan's taste.

    I understand Jean Grey's fan problem with characterization but there is still a story to be revealed. There could be a story reason why she came off as younger and less experienced. Even still it takes a while for a writer to find a character voice we give good writers benefit of the doubt. Not complain and moan with maybe 6 pages max of the character being used. I have seen a fan mad because Hickman found the voice of Emma perfectly and use that as an indication that Hickman hates Jean. I mean we are only on a forum but not complaining at the writer but some people do go at the writer with this stuff. If Jean Grey fan is valid complaining what about Psylocke, Rogue, Kitty, Jubilee, etc Those characters haven't been used. What about Husk and Angel who show up and just died. A lot of complaints is fan entitlement not really an accurate assessment in a lot of cases. Some of these complaints don't have a place in an ensemble book about a group of characters.

    When I complain there is a level understanding, I don't speak for everyone and this is my personal opinion. There is a big difference when a fan complains for themselves and complains for everyone. That is where the issue come up imo

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Jean isn't a favorite from Taylor or Thompson or Brisson or Rosenberg
    Tom Taylor dam near wrote a Jean Grey solo in Red, It is hard to come away not thinking she was not a favorite
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-26-2019 at 11:28 AM.

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