HOUSE OF X [05] : Society *Spoilers*

[ExodusCloak]

You didn't complain about writer favourites when Tom Taylor (and then Thompson/Brisson/Rosenberg) did it.

This so much. Taylor's Red should have been dubbed a solo series.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

FFS, Xavier clearly nerfed Jeansus so she wouldn't shut his sex cult down. Relax.

[ExodusCloak]

I actually think that Jean is perfectly in character. And I don't see that changing after HoX/PoX. As she's still wearing the same costume in X-force.

[RachelGrey]

There is a difference between expressing displeasure and thinking writer/marvel has it out for the character. There is a difference between expressing displeasure and blaming another character for your favorite no being used. There is a certain understanding that you are not the only fan in the world and you don't speak for every fan's taste.

I understand Jean Grey's fan problem with characterization but there is still a story to be revealed. There could be a story reason why she came off as younger and less experienced. Even still it takes a while for a writer to find a character voice we give good writers benefit of the doubt. Not complain and moan with maybe 6 pages max of the character being used. I have seen a fan mad because Hickman found the voice of Emma perfectly and use that as an indication that Hickman hates Jean. I mean we are only on a forum but not complaining at the writer but some people do go at the writer with this stuff. If Jean Grey fan is valid complaining what about Psylocke, Rogue, Kitty, Jubilee, etc Those characters haven't been used. What about Husk and Angel who show up and just died. A lot of complaints is fan entitlement not really an accurate assessment in a lot of cases. Some of these complaints don't have a place in an ensemble book about a group of characters.

When I complain there is a level understanding, I don't speak for everyone and this is my personal opinion. There is a big difference when a fan complains and complains for everyone. That is where the issue come up imo

I agree with you, Hickman is just the first writer to really get Emma's voice in a really long time. But that doesn't mean other characters aren't going to shine as Dawn of X continues.

Jean is a member of the Quiet Council, she is a core member of X-Force, and she is a rotating member of the X-Men field team. Jean is going to get to shine this fall for sure, they wouldn't be pushing Jean so hard otherwise, they expect Jean to be one of the top characters. If I was going to make any comment I would say that the female X-Men are getting a huge push this fall, Marvel knows they have some of the best female characters in the X-Men so we are going to see a big push for Jean, Emma, Storm, Kitty, Elizabeth, Rogue, et al.

[TOTALITY]

But who dictates the story? Fans who are not happy express their displeasure & other self-righteous fans act as though it's unreasonable that many are disappointed with less than good characterization & lecture others on how they ought to be seeing it..

Like mentioned earlier, everyone has an excuse or dismissal of others when they're getting their way. But when something comes they don't like, they'll be just as salty & vocal. It's normal when you're disappointed about anything. Now what it takes to disappoint you is another matter.



Personally I think he has contradicted Red because the Jean here wouldn't have done anything she did in Red. The Jean here has zero backbone & has to beg junior characters for help with said character telling her to grow a pair. lol So really it can be argued that's two of Hickman's favs. that have shown Jean up. In which case, I can still understand her fans' valid complaints. lol

Again, for me if a run no longer has any effect on the characters, isn't acknowledged, and has contradictory characterization that didn't match anything they did previously, the that last run is basically filler & serves no purpose anymore. I say that about liked & disliked runs.

Constantly changing rules & characters whenever it's convenient makes most stories feel shallow & disconnected as if they have nothing to do with each other. Basically like episodes of Courage the Cowardly Dog or Family Guy where the next episode has noting to do with the previous & those events no longer matter or count.

Who dictates the story? The writers, editors, and owners of the characters -- it's their prerogative to make products that people will want to buy, while also keeping on eye on the longterm viability of the property, and that's it. We can be vocal about about what we like and don't like; that's one of the fun things about being a fan, and it's okay for fans to not all agree with each other. But the comics aren't made-to-order. If they go and make a comic that doesn't follow what you want, that's not the same as a restaurant getting your order wrong or a surgeon botching a procedure.

I know continuity is one of the main features of the Marvel Universe, but if every story is only a reaction to what came immediately before, then storytelling is more like solving a math problem, or a long-running improv routine. Some writers need the leeway to take a more holistic approach to figuring out what a concept or characters need, even if that means that the spectrum of stories they draw from doesn't give a lot of emphasis to certain things that came right before. Certainly not every new writer should do that, but a story like this with huge, unprecedented scenarios, that's still rooted in a ton of history, can get away with it I think.

For some people, Red may have been a "this isn't my Jean" while it was happening. And many more will likely just never read any of her appearances between Morrison and Hickman. But all that stuff is still there, and even if it's not explicitly drawn on right away, you never know when someone might reference it. It's always fair game.

Like with Kitty, the biggest demographic of X-Fans are probably people who haven't read much between when she left Claremont's first run and began Astonishing. Those of us who do like much of the stuff in between have to sort of "head canon" her arc in a way that makes all the dots connect. Another fun part of being a fan! But Mekanix is still there.... if anyone wants to pick up on her romance with Karma.... *ahem*

[Silver Fang]

When I complain there is a level understanding, I don't speak for everyone and this is my personal opinion. There is a big difference when a fan complains and complains for everyone. That is where the issue come up imo

I haven't any complain for everyone. If they say "This sucks", I never thought it always had to be said "in my opinion" at the end of everything. It goes without saying everyone here is expressing opinions, except when they state facts about something in a comic that contradicts something that came before it.

Again it can come off as if writers have it out for characters given circumstances. Like I mentioned with Emma & Jean above. Morrison started the contest & rivalry between the two. So if both are in the same book, and only one is getting decent showings while the other one is humiliated or useless at every turn, it does come off as a writer elevating their preferred character in the rivalry and making sure the other stays beneath them. Nowadays, writers seem to play favorites & be as biased as fans.

On the flip, many thought Rosenberg preferred Jean to Emma since he had Scott shooting things out of Emma's hands, telling her to shut up, having other characters telling her she was done with Scott, having bad guys outwitting her at most turns, then Jean smooching Scott while she watches with jealousy. Now the tide has turned with Hickman who does seem to prefer Emma to Jean in his writing and gives her the better scenes, showings, and accomplishments compared to Orihime..I mean Jean.

With Logan vs. Creed. Even as a "god guy", when Pak had both Mary Sue Logan & Creed, the former is the one that did everything and got any decent feats. The latter just existed to be the loser Butt-Monkey opposite to the pet, and it was tiresome & annoying.

In any cases like that, there does appear to be bias at work where writers have written off characters from the start or only use them to show the superiority of another character.

[Silver Fang]

Who dictates the story? The writers, editors, and owners of the characters -- it's their prerogative to make products that people will want to buy, while also keeping on eye on the longterm viability of the property, and that's it. We can be vocal about about what we like and don't like; that's one of the fun things about being a fan, and it's okay for fans to not all agree with each other. But the comics aren't made-to-order. If they go and make a comic that doesn't follow what you want, that's not the same as a restaurant getting your order wrong or a surgeon botching a procedure.

I mean who's dictating a story here? Nobody. Just those expressing displeasure at what they consider less than good writing. But some act as though fans who have had their favorites ruined for years have no right to complain, and if they do they're entitled or demanding because they have to constantly sit through years of character assassination, which again, they will vent about.

Everyone will be venting about something because everyone doesn't like everything or have the same standards.

But when those who are on top & have no problems are lecturing the ones that do, that just comes off as dismissive. Everyone sings a different tune when they're the one effected negatively. Again it's easy to tell people they're overreacting or being unfair when you don't care about the same thing. But the second it is something you care about, you would be just as critical.

[RachelGrey]

Who dictates the story? The writers, editors, and owners of the characters -- it's their prerogative to make products that people will want to buy, while also keeping on eye on the longterm viability of the property, and that's it. We can be vocal about about what we like and don't like; that's one of the fun things about being a fan, and it's okay for fans to not all agree with each other. But the comics aren't made-to-order. If they go and make a comic that doesn't follow what you want, that's not the same as a restaurant getting your order wrong or a surgeon botching a procedure.

I know continuity is one of the main features of the Marvel Universe, but if every story is only a reaction to what came immediately before, then storytelling is more like solving a math problem, or a long-running improv routine. Some writers need the leeway to take a more holistic approach to figuring out what a concept or characters need, even if that means that the spectrum of stories they draw from doesn't give a lot of emphasis to certain things that came right before. Certainly not every new writer should do that, but a story like this with huge, unprecedented scenarios, that's still rooted in a ton of history, can get away with it I think.

For some people, Red may have been a "this isn't my Jean" while it was happening. And many more will likely just never read any of her appearances between Morrison and Hickman. But all that stuff is still there, and even if it's not explicitly drawn on right away, you never know when someone might reference it. It's always fair game.

Like with Kitty, the biggest demographic of X-Fans are probably people who haven't read much between when she left Claremont's first run and began Astonishing. Those of us who do like much of the stuff in between have to sort of "head canon" her arc in a way that makes all the dots connect. Another fun part of being a fan! But Mekanix is still there.... if anyone wants to pick up on her romance with Karma.... *ahem*

I loved Mekanix, I read it on Marvel Unlimited.
Kitty and Karma flirting.
Kitty working at Coyote Ugly bar.

I kind of wished it would have been an ongoing, they were expanding the number of college characters at the end too.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

I actually think that Jean is perfectly in character.

Overall character template is fine, but not enough lectures and speeches nobody asked for. Something's not quite right.

And I don't see that changing after HoX/PoX. As she's still wearing the same costume in X-force.

Well, yeah, the Stepford Mutants obviously are going to be around for a while.

[ExodusCloak]

Overall character template is fine, but not enough lectures and speeches nobody asked for. Something's not quite right.



Well, yeah, the Stepford Mutants obviously are going to be around for a while.

You have to remember Teen Jean didn't want to die. She was scared of being dead again. Jean showed empathy for her enemies despite them trying to kill her cough Xorn cough

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

You have to remember Teen Jean didn't want to die. She was scared of being dead again. Jean showed empathy for her enemies despite them trying to kill her cough Xorn cough

I dunno, it would indeed be funny if the merger with Jeen made Jeansus lamer, but Xavier editing out potentially problematic portions of his drones' brains so he could set up his sex cu... I mean, for the children would be even funnier.

Also, if it's the former, you just know we'll get another 'Must get over myself through feats and scenery-chewing!!!' storyline/solo masquerading as a team book.

[Killerbee911]

I agree with you, Hickman is just the first writer to really get Emma's voice in a really long time. But that doesn't mean other characters aren't going to shine as Dawn of X continues.

.

Hickman was the first person in a long awhile to get Nightcrawler voice right as well imo. Hickman has favorites of course but I don't find him to be a writer that leans too heavy on his favorites. What do Magneto, Mr. Sinster, Emma, Namor, M have in common they are characters with big bombastic personalities that can deliver lines with snark or arrogance. We know Hickman is going to pick up and write well easy. Other characters haven't come as quickly Hickman didn't write a great Wolverine so far, Hickman hasn't wrote a great Cyclops so far. They are moments where he is close but it will get better with time. A character with heart and compassion takes a little more set up nuance writing characters like Jean, Nightcrawler, and Colossus and being interesting is freaking hard. You lean to hard on their compassion and the come off as soft like Jean did in HoX.

He is telling a large story with a bunch of moving parts. Jean is 3 pages in Hox 1, 3 pages in Hox 3, 6 pages in Hox 4, 3 pages in Hox 5. Complaining after maybe 15 pages and most of these pages are more story set up than dialogue-based stuff feels like people are being a bit early in their complaints.

[RachelGrey]

Hickman was the first person in a long awhile to get Nightcrawler voice right as well. Hickman has favorites of course but I don't find him to be a writer that leans too heavy on his favorites. What do Magneto, Mr. Sinster, Emma, Namor, M have in common they are characters with big bombastic personalities that can deliver lines with snark or arrogance. We know Hickman is going to pick up and write well easy. Other characters haven't come as quickly Hickman didn't write a great Wolverine so far, Hickman hasn't wrote a great Cyclops so far. They are moments where he is close. A character with heart and compassion takes a little more set up nuance writing characters like Jean, Nightcrawler, and Colossus and being interesting is freaking hard. You lean to hard on their compassion and the come off as soft like Jean did in HoX.

He is telling a large story with a bunch of moving parts. Jean is 3 pages in Hox 1, 3 pages in Hox 3, 6 pages in Hox 4, 3 pages in Hox 5. Complaining after maybe 15 pages and most of these pages are more story set up than dialogue-based stuff feels like people are being a bit early in their complaints.

I forgot how moving that conversation with Logan and Kurt was, that was really excellent writing when I go back and read it a second time. It captured the essence of both characters really well.

Even with the limited dialogue, they even captured a some of Jean's personality in her response to the resurrection question from Storm.

Anyway, I love this story and I am really excited for the upcoming Dawn of X books.

Just from art alone, I saw that one Marauders cover of Storm and it captured her absolute joy and wonder of just flying in a storm and enjoying her connection to the weather and the Earth.

[Frobisher]

I mean, Elizabeth is not even in this. No-one has so much as offered to brew a pot of tea.

Still enjoying it, I just want someone to make tea in Excalibur.

[Triniking1234]

I mean, Elizabeth is not even in this. No-one has so much as offered to brew a pot of tea.

Obviously Hickman is Mr. Sinister irl and hates English women.