HOUSE OF X [05] : Society *Spoilers*

[jwatson]

You will not be surprised I totally agree with this, given that I was also getting Dune / Golden Path vibes early on. Arguing about the reasons that we are in this position, which so much of this thread contains, is beside the point. This is a new terrifying world just as the Golden Path was a terrifying world. This is a autocratic society, just as Leto II was autocratic. The fact that it is “necessary” and “justified” is the entire point.

We are being gently taken by the hand and led through a pretty garden to the machine just past the wall that is fascism. This isn’t pledging to a flag, (although even that feels unsettling to those of us that are not brought up that way) this is ritual identification of ‘us and other’ not just ‘us’.

This is also religious in its use of rebirth. The nakedness is very deliberate. The adoration of the miracle workers is equally tapping into superstition and stardom. God Emperor Xavier.

In many ways this is a knowing, post-modern dictatorship. Xavier isn’t lying to the people, and I don't think he is mind controlling them, but he is still manipulating them, even as they embrace that manipulation knowingly.

Xavier isn’t obviously evil, and has a purpose that we can identify with, based on a journey we have walked with him, but that doesn’t make this right. But, even if it’s wholly wrong, it may still be necessary. Either way it is other. They have defined themselves by not being us. We can’t fully root for Xavier, and perhaps none of them. This is beyond the mutant metaphor.

But how are they any different than modern refugees fleeing persecution in their own homes for a better life. I can stretch my mind to understand the argument about Xavier, and thats only if he actually does something to take advantage of these mutants which hasn't been the case so far. But i just really don't see the difference from slaves fleeing the south to go up north and refugees fleeing their home country and taking up refuge where they can be proud of who they are and try to obtain a bettter more peaceful life. You have to ignore what has happened to mutants to make it inherently bad.

[nonsense man]

Well The xmen are now the same as aim hydra atlantis wakanda on a bad day and latveria. The only heroes in the marvel universe now are the avengers and spiderman that is it. Also death is now meaningless as well. I wonder if sinster is going to clone a pro mutant version of hulk and spiderman. hey maybe tchalla clones a storm who loves him or alpha flight cloning their own version of wolverine who isnt a mutant supremiscist. Everything is on the table for those types of stories actually they would be better stories than the recent politically motivated ones they are doing at marvel.

[jwatson]

Well The xmen are now the same as aim hydra atlantis wakanda on a bad day and latveria. The only heroes in the marvel universe now are the avengers and spiderman that is it. Also death is now meaningless as well. I wonder if sinster is going to clone a pro mutant version of hulk and spiderman. hey maybe tchalla clones a storm who loves him or alpha flight cloning their own version of wolverine who isnt a mutant supremiscist. Everything is on the table for those types of stories actually they would be better stories than the recent politically motivated ones they are doing at marvel.

By this logic there are no heroes in the marvel u because the avengers sat by and did nothing while mutants were being killed on many occasions. If they are suppose to earth's mightest heroes why didn't they protect all citizens of earth. only human lives matter? I'll give you Spiderman, he cared enough to teach mutants.

[JKtheMac]

But how are they any different than modern refugees fleeing persecution in their own homes for a better life. I can stretch my mind to understand the argument about Xavier, and thats only if he actually does something to take advantage of these mutants which hasn't been the case so far. But i just really don't see the difference from slaves fleeing the south to go up north and refugees fleeing their home country and taking up refuge where they can be proud of who they are and try to obtain a bettter more peaceful life. You have to ignore what has happened to mutants to make it inherently bad.

Usually, people that flee persecution don’t start religio-political movements that embrace extremists and create an all-embracing fascist state. It CAN happen in part, but not to this extent.

[jwatson]

Usually, people that flee persecution don’t start religio-political movements that embrace extremists and create an all-embracing fascist state. It CAN happen in part, but not to this extent.

But that's xavier which i gave you. We haven't seen him do anything yet besides stealing files from an illlegal operation to protect the lives of potentially millions. Still illegal but i can see why. But that doesn't have anything to do with the mutants who are coming there seriously just looking for a safe place or a place where they can be proud to be a mutant for once. Especially those who don't look human at all. Then theres the question, why was the inhuman situation considered different than the mutant one. They created their own island in the middle of the ocean where no one was, the inhumans parked themselves into the center of humanity and were changing humans against their will and governments didn't rise up to do much, nor did the other heroes in the marvel universe. So why would there be a problem here, why is one seen as a danger but the other isn't. As of what we have now the mutants have not hurt any humans beside the two sabretooth killed and he was an individual on a mission. Pretty similar to a bad cop killing someone in a routine traffic stop. Except those people were armed.

[JKtheMac]

But that's xavier which i gave you. We haven't seen him do anything yet besides stealing files from an illlegal operation to protect the lives of potentially millions. Still illegal but i can see why. But that doesn't have anything to do with the mutants who are coming there seriously just looking for a safe place or a place where they can be proud to be a mutant for once. Especially those who don't look human at all. Then theres the question, why was the inhuman situation considered different than the mutant one. They created their own island in the middle of the ocean where no one was, the inhumans parked themselves into the center of humanity and were changing humans against their will and governments didn't rise up to do much, nor did the other heroes in the marvel universe. So why would there be a problem here, why is one seen as a danger but the other isn't. As of what we have now the mutants have not hurt any humans beside the two sabretooth killed and he was an individual on a mission. Pretty similar to a bad cop killing someone in a routine traffic stop. Except those people were armed.

I don’t know what comic you just read, but I just watched a dictator shaking hands with Apocalypse after that despot basically reiterated the idea of survival of the strongest. Morality in Krakoa appears to be what Xavier says it is. That’s the sign of a dictatorship. We can argue about whether it’s benign but personally I don’t believe in dictatorships of any kind.

[jwatson]

I don’t know what comic you just read, but I just watched a dictator shaking hands with Apocalypse after that despot basically reiterated the idea of survival of the strongest. Morality in Krakoa appears to be what Xavier says it is. That’s the sign of a dictatorship. We can argue about whether it’s benign but personally I don’t believe in dictatorships of any kind.

Again but even giving you that i don't see how that makes it wrong for mutants overall. We don't even know what their politics are. If they have mutant elections next week does that change things? And i'm not talking about you personally i mean in universe. I don't see how in universe the argument can be made this is wrong when people were so willing to work with the inhumans in universe when they clearly felt they were the better species and were killing human citizens who failed to successfully complete the t-process.

[Grimsmack]

You can say that you know that, but that's a weird fanfic interpretation. Mutants will overtake humans naturally. They just need to keep themselves from being wiped out. Humans need genocide, Mutants don't.


He'd have to have their soul in Cerebro and DNA in Sinister's database. Unlikely he has either.

That’s not how evolution works, the “higher” species doesn’t necessarily inherit the planet at the expense of the “lower” species. Evolution is shaped by competition and the environment , among other factors, so many times the “higher” lifeform dies out while the lower one lives on. Look what happened to the dinosaurs.

[Zaja]

I think I read it in some place that evolution is not so much 'survival of the strongest', but instead, 'survival of the good enough'. Some lifeforms have evolved to excel in one particular environment, but when transported to another, they become rather unqualified. Then again, I might be misremembering.

[gambitxremy]

I wonder if Hickman will make Sam cannonball a external

[useridgoeshere]

The problem some folks seem to have is that they prefer Mutants as a permanent underclass who must only exist in an inferior position to humans no matter what. Certainly we see in America how people, including the current majority on the Supreme Court, are only okay with minority progress up to a point. In the comic, Orchis activated only if Mutants achieved economic, social or political success then the Sentinels had to be unleashed to break them down again.

That’s not how evolution works, the “higher” species doesn’t necessarily inherit the planet at the expense of the “lower” species. Evolution is shaped by competition and the environment , among other factors, so many times the “higher” lifeform dies out while the lower one lives on. Look what happened to the dinosaurs.

None of this is how evolution really works. In Marvel, humans are giving birth to Mutants. They’re not separate species and if nobody did anything, Mutants would be the majority of babies born. That’s all I’m pointing out. People are acting like human existence is threatened by evil Mutants. That’s untrue. Aliens and evil humans are just as much or more of a threat. If Mutants become a dominant species, it’s because human children are simply exceeding their parents.

Dinosaurs were wiped out by an external force, like Sentinels. And replaced by mammals, which they did not give birth to.

[skyvolt2000]

Moving on however, I’m curious as to what the opinions are in regards to the “clones” being viable as the original characters or not? In my mind an individual is only the some of its parts, mental and physical. The “soul” simply being the union of the two. So if their “husks” are made from the same exact genetic material and the original body and the mind is copied and pasted directly into said husk, then what exactly is it about them that would make them “not themselves”? Genuinely curious and think this is a great talking point to see people’s ideas on humanity and what makes a person themselves. Also very cool to see and read about as a fan of Altered Carbon.

For those wondering why so many are coming back-
Hickman said NO NEW CHARACTERS. They were going to use who was already around. So it wouldn't be a shock to see certain folks (SYNCH SYNCH SYNCH & hopefully those kids killed on a certain bus) come back.

Now to the "clones".

One question are these really clones? Or are they from Miles Morales's old universe. Who knows what mess Ultimate End, Secret Wars & Hail Hydra Cap left behind.

What if all these guys are just folks from the Ultimate Universe in some cases?
Although AGE WISE-Synch & any Generation X kids SHOULD be Moon Girl or Danielle Cage's ages.

[jwatson]

For those wondering why so many are coming back-
Hickman said NO NEW CHARACTERS. They were going to use who was already around. So it wouldn't be a shock to see certain folks (SYNCH SYNCH SYNCH & hopefully those kids killed on a certain bus) come back.

Now to the "clones".

One question are these really clones? Or are they from Miles Morales's old universe. Who knows what mess Ultimate End, Secret Wars & Hail Hydra Cap left behind.

What if all these guys are just folks from the Ultimate Universe in some cases?
Although AGE WISE-Synch & any Generation X kids SHOULD be Moon Girl or Danielle Cage's ages.

Tecnhnically if we go by no more mutants and decimation happening couldn't be more than 2 years ago since it happened after genosha wouldn't that mean any new mutants being born won't get their powers for at least a decade marvel time.

[powerpax]

We are supposed to feel both uncomfortable and unnerved, but also excited and liberated. That's why this thread already has 80+ pages, the controversial and divisive nature of dynamite material.

Yes, it's very much like Dune. It has cultish vibes. Yes, the mutants are embracing their non-homo sapiens status and supremacy.
No, I don't believe Xavier is presented as a dictator. Yes, I do think he is dangerous. I think they're all dangerous and can likely go too far. I also think it's about time.
The X-Men have transcended traditional comic book morality. For the foreseeable future they will likely be positioned as potential 'villains' opposite other Marvel heroes, when in reality thus far they are just doing things their own way from now on.
I don't find them evil nor do I find them wholly good. I think it's troubling and fascinating and awesome. I think they are doing what must be done for themselves.

We can root for them and fear them in equal measure. Some of us will also be fully on one side or the other, as this thread demonstrates. Either way, I love what's become of the X-Men.

[silence.]

Usually, people that flee persecution don’t start religio-political movements that embrace extremists and create an all-embracing fascist state. It CAN happen in part, but not to this extent.

.....

I'm.. I'm just not going to say anything other than consider rereading HOX 1.