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  1. #226
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    Bi? No. FF comes out monthly not bi-monthly.
    You're using the wrong argument. We're talking about Johnny Storm here, NOT the FF. Johnny's first series was monthly back in Strange Tales. There was a reprint book in the 70s with Johnny and original Torch Jim Hammond stories which was bi. Johnny next had a monthly series in the Tsunami books in the early 2000s. So Johnny's not bi. Jim Hammond, who had quarterly and vi-monthlly scheduling in the Golden Age might be, though.

  2. #227
    Spectacular Member Storm17's Avatar
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    Johnny Storm is no doubt in my mind a flaming bisexual. More proof for it than against it.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm17 View Post
    Johnny Storm is no doubt in my mind a flaming bisexual. More proof for it than against it.
    Daken, Wyatt but who else though?????

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Daken, Wyatt but who else though?????
    Peter Parker/Spider-Man! They have had plenty of bromantic moments between them that had provided a lot of slash fodder.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coatl View Post
    You mean after she murder him the first of the second time? After she murder him the second time (and caused the mutant genocide) she went in a vacation, and Clint found her, they didn't talk too much as far as I remember.
    Hold up, lots of charged linage here when the circumstances weren't that bad. Wanda didn't "murder" Clint in Disassembled, he stupidly committed suicide in a terrorist attack and Wanda was far from sane from her powers at that stage. That's why Dr. Strange appeared, he knew her powers had gotten out of control and of course the silly chaos magic retcon. Wanda didn't murder any heroes trying to stop her with "No more mutants" - reality simply went white and rebooted.

  6. #231
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    I'm skeptic if this is a good idea. On one hand, Johnny being bi creates more representation. On the other, it would reinforce some gender norms. Two guys should be able to have a close bond without the implication that one of them is gay. For Marvel to imply there was always an element of eroticism in Johnny Storm and Peter Parker's bromance would be problematic. Particularly since it is Marvel's most iconic bromance.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-13-2020 at 09:10 PM.

  7. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I'm skeptic if this is a good idea. On one hand, Johnny being bi creates more representation. On the other, it would reinforce some gender norms. Two guys should be able to have a close bond without the implication that one of them is gay. For Marvel to imply there was always an element of eroticism in Johnny Storm and Peter Parker's bromance would be problematic. Particularly since it is Marvel's most iconic bromance.
    This was one of the things that I always found troubling with Cap & Bucky; bros can bro out without boning one another. It would be akin that every woman who had a best friend (male or female) would be falling in love with one another which is a common trope.

    With that being said; it would be pretty hot though

  8. #233
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I'm skeptic if this is a good idea. On one hand, Johnny being bi creates more representation. On the other, it would reinforce some gender norms. Two guys should be able to have a close bond without the implication that one of them is gay. For Marvel to imply there was always an element of eroticism in Johnny Storm and Peter Parker's bromance would be problematic. Particularly since it is Marvel's most iconic bromance.
    Johnny and Peter will never be romantically involved and I don't think they should. Johnny being bi shouldn't and wouldn't change that.

    However, I don't agree about it reinforcing any preconceived norms as you rarely have close relationships between two men with one being apart of the LGBT+ community and the other being straight. I think comics (and media in general) would only benefit from showing more bromances like this. Plus so what if Johnny at one point felt or still feels a slight attraction to Peter? Sometimes it happens and people eventually decide to get over it to put the friendship first. Shouldn't a story like that also be worth exploring? Marvel has always prided itself with having both the wacky superhero hi-jinks and being "the world outside your window". Things like this are real for many people both in and out of the LGBT community, having feelings for a friend who doesn't feel the same and trying not to mess up the friendship over it. If Johnny is ever revealed to be bi and they decide explore that dynamic with his relationship with Peter, then I don't see a problem. It's something many people experience and we should expect more things like that for characters if we want them to feel truly real.
    Last edited by Crimz; 05-13-2020 at 10:07 PM.
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  9. #234
    Spectacular Member Storm17's Avatar
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    Gay/bi guys can be friends with straight guys. The media could normalize that, as it is common. All my friends are straight guys and I'm gay. It's the same as a straight guy and a straight woman being friends without boning eachother.

    Johnny is bi. That's my final verdict.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Johnny and Peter will never be romantically involved and I don't think they should. Johnny being bi shouldn't and wouldn't change that.

    However, I don't agree about it reinforcing any preconceived norms as you rarely have close relationships between two men with one being apart of the LGBT+ community and the other being straight. I think comics (and media in general) would only benefit from showing more bromances like this. Plus so what if Johnny at one point felt or still feels a slight attraction to Peter? Sometimes it happens and people eventually decide to get over it to put the friendship first. Shouldn't a story like that also be worth exploring? Marvel has always prided itself with having both the wacky superhero hi-jinks and being "the world outside your window". Things like this are real for many people both in and out of the LGBT community, having feelings for a friend who doesn't feel the same and trying not to mess up the friendship over it. If Johnny is ever revealed to be bi and they decide explore that dynamic with his relationship with Peter, then I don't see a problem. It's something many people experience and we should expect more things like that for characters if we want them to feel truly real.
    The notion that two men can't have a close bond without both of them being heterosexual is what's problematic.

    Men are told from a young age they can't feel strong platonic attractions to other men without being in denial about their sexuality. Men suffer more from loneliness, depression, and suicide due to this.

    We only have to look at this thread to see the double standard. There are already many examples of people joking (or not joking) that Johnny is "obviously" sexually attracted to Peter. We would almost certainly not be having this discussion if Johnny and Peter were women. We just don't perceive touchy moments between two female friends as proof of homosexuality/bisexuality on one friend's behalf (or on both).

    There is obviously nothing wrong with Johnny being bi and being friends with Peter. It's the reason (or one of the reasons) given that makes it maybe not a good idea. I mean, I could take a cis male character and make them transgender. It would still be problematic if I source the character's driving record as a reason it "made sense".
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-14-2020 at 10:32 AM.

  11. #236
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The notion that two men can't have a close bond without both of them being heterosexual is what's problematic.

    Men are told from a young age they can't feel strong platonic attractions to other men without being in denial about their sexuality. Men suffer more from loneliness, depression, and suicide due to this.

    We only have to look at this thread to see the double standard. There are already many examples of people joking (or not joking) that Johnny is "obviously" sexually attracted to Peter. We would almost certainly not be having this discussion if Johnny and Peter were women. We just don't perceive touchy moments between two female friends as proof of homosexuality/bisexuality on one friend's behalf (or on both).

    There is obviously nothing wrong with Johnny being bi. Or with a straight guy and bi guy being friends. It's the reason (or one of the reasons) given that makes it maybe not a good idea. I could take a male character with a bad driving record and say they were transgender all along, it wouldn't make it not problematic right?
    What? There are literally tons of close relationships between heterosexual men in media, it is the norm. What's not considered the norm is a close friendship with between a heterosexual man and a gay/bi man. Why can't that be represented? That should be shown as a normal and great platonic relationship as much as two heterosexual men.
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  12. #237
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    The notion that Johnny if revealed/made to be bisexual suddenly cannot have platonic friendships with straight men like Peter is what is problematic here.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    What? There are literally tons of close relationships between heterosexual men in media, it is the norm. What's not considered the norm is a close friendship with between a heterosexual man and a gay/bi man. Why can't that be represented? That should be shown as a normal and great platonic relationship as much as two heterosexual men.
    It is absolutely a double standard. Male friendships are common yes, but not like female friendships. Things like two males hugging, being touchy with one another or sharing all of their feelings are seen more sexual and romantic in nature than when females do it. Whenever see it with men, there is almost always a character who questions if their relationship is platonic. Holmes & Watson are the most popular bromance in our culture and even there, the character Mrs. Hudson can't imagine their relationship is platonic. She bases this solely on them being bff's living together.

    We can find this same double standard in real life. Take this article for example:
    https://www.succeedsocially.com/oneononewithguys

    This is from a popular internet social guide on how to make friends. The author talks about how men are more likely to get "date vibes" from just hanging out one-on-one with other men.

    Anyways, back to Johnny Storm...I think Johnny can be gay/bi and still have a platonic friendship with Peter. But not everyone seems to agree, including the people most on board with the idea of Johnny being gay/bi.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-14-2020 at 11:30 AM.

  14. #239
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    It is absolutely a double standard. Male friendships are common yes, but not like female friendships. Things like two males hugging, being touchy with one another or sharing all of their feelings are seen more sexual and romantic in nature than when females do it. Whenever see it with men, there is almost always a character who questions if their relationship is platonic. Holmes & Watson are the most popular bromance in our culture and even there, the character Mrs. Hudson can't imagine their relationship is platonic. She bases this solely on them being bff's living together.

    We can find this same double standard in real life. Take this article for example:
    https://www.succeedsocially.com/oneononewithguys

    This is from a popular internet social guide on how to make friends. The author talks about how men are more likely to get "date vibes" from just hanging out one-on-one with other men.

    Anyways, back to Johnny Storm...I think Johnny can be gay/bi and still have a platonic friendship with Peter. But not everyone seems to agree, including the people most on board with the idea of Johnny being gay/bi.
    And what I'm saying is that there are tons of platonic relationships between two straight guys. It is the norm. It's not suddenly in danger because Johnny Storm of all characters is outed as bisexual. In fact wouldn't it be a testament to their friendship if Johnny came out and their dynamic stayed the same? It's so rare to see a really close friendship between a straight man and gay/bisexual man and that deserves to be represented too.

    Also, Johnny is apart of the Fantastic Four he's not under the Spider-man umbrella. Him possibly being bi shouldn't not happen because of a character not apart of the FF-line (and a character it wouldn't effect at all because Peter will always be straight). People are gonna ship characters together no matter what. That's no reason not to do it. They'll ship them anyway because it's what they want to do and I don't see why that should be a reason not to have Johnny be bi. Like people ship Sue with many characters other than Reed, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to happen. It's just one of the things that happens in fandoms and those who ship Johnny with Peter are going to continue no matter what. It's not a valid reason to oppose this.
    Last edited by Crimz; 05-15-2020 at 01:04 AM.
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  15. #240
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Johnny’s been around for 60 or 70 years.

    He dresses flamboyantly. He has some male friends. So what?

    In comics I’ve read...which include hundreds of FF issues..I’ve not seen any convincing evidence that he’s bi. Can somebody point me to some specific evidence?

    Perhaps better question is: is there a really compelling case to start writing as such? Would it be more interesting to do that than writing say Franklin or Sue or Uncle Tom Cobley as bi? If so, why?
    Last edited by JackDaw; 05-15-2020 at 01:53 AM.

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