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  1. #241
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Johnny’s been around for 60 or 70 years.

    He dresses flamboyantly. He has some male friends. So what?

    In comics I’ve read...which include hundreds of FF issues..I’ve not seen any convincing evidence that he’s bi. Can somebody point me to some specific evidence?

    Perhaps better question is: is there a really compelling case to start writing as such? Would it be more interesting to do that than writing say Franklin or Sue or Uncle Tom Cobley as bi? If so, why?
    Cause Johnny is HOTT!!

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    I dont think he is. The closest real evidence is some stuff with Daken, and Daken's powers make that questionable.

    If the FF series needs some LGBT rep, I still say do something with Franklin. Clean slate in terms of his history and age, and while teens coming out is a bit tropey, it's usually an interesting story from a dramatic sense
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  3. #243
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Cause Johnny is HOTT!!
    He is.

    But so are 99 percent of all Marvel heroes/ heroines.

  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    He is.

    But so are 99 percent of all Marvel heroes/ heroines.
    Cuz it's horny fun, duh

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Johnnyís been around for 60 or 70 years.

    He dresses flamboyantly. He has some male friends. So what?

    In comics Iíve read...which include hundreds of FF issues..Iíve not seen any convincing evidence that heís bi. Can somebody point me to some specific evidence?

    Perhaps better question is: is there a really compelling case to start writing as such? Would it be more interesting to do that than writing say Franklin or Sue or Uncle Tom Cobley as bi? If so, why?
    Have you read any issues of him with Daken?

  6. #246
    Spectacular Member Storm17's Avatar
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    Ever since the early issues there have been light undertones that you might just read over, but they're there.

  7. #247
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    I dont think he is. The closest real evidence is some stuff with Daken, and Daken's powers make that questionable.

    If the FF series needs some LGBT rep, I still say do something with Franklin. Clean slate in terms of his history and age, and while teens coming out is a bit tropey, it's usually an interesting story from a dramatic sense
    Franklin is an idea that's been offered before and I don't have any real argument against it. So far he's been seen as hetero-normative (I don't know if the term is a good one). He's had contact with Wendy as well as a girl on Yancy Street where attraction could play a role. Additionally, his feelings about Kitty may also be part of this (but I haven't read FF/Men 3 still locked up in my closed LCS). Hickman also made references to a future girlfriend/crush.

    Johnny and Franklin seem to be the only real possibilities of LGBTQ representation of core FF characters. We know Johnny's got a strong straight streak so bisexuality seems to be more reasonable than gay with his character's history. As for Franklin, would any sexual preference be an issue given that he's already an incredibly powerful mutant and creator of universes?

    Insisting on one or the other seems like tokenism. Both could work. This is certainly a fun and interesting conversation.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Franklin is an idea that's been offered before and I don't have any real argument against it. So far he's been seen as hetero-normative (I don't know if the term is a good one). He's had contact with Wendy as well as a girl on Yancy Street where attraction could play a role. Additionally, his feelings about Kitty may also be part of this (but I haven't read FF/Men 3 still locked up in my closed LCS). Hickman also made references to a future girlfriend/crush.

    Johnny and Franklin seem to be the only real possibilities of LGBTQ representation of core FF characters. We know Johnny's got a strong straight streak so bisexuality seems to be more reasonable than gay with his character's history. As for Franklin, would any sexual preference be an issue given that he's already an incredibly powerful mutant and creator of universes?

    Insisting on one or the other seems like tokenism. Both could work. This is certainly a fun and interesting conversation.
    To be fair, weíve seen future incarnations of Franklin from Days of Future Past, to MC2 Fantastic Five to Hickmanís herald of Galaxtus.

    Heís either straight in those (like with Rachel Summers) or asexual as a Galactus herald.

    Iím not as familiar with future Val.

  9. #249
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Wait wait wait......Johnny Storm. The Human Torch is Bisexual?????

    Wh- sense WHEN??!!
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  10. #250
    Spectacular Member Storm17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Wait wait wait......Johnny Storm. The Human Torch is Bisexual?????

    Wh- sense WHEN??!!
    About 1961

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    And what I'm saying is that there are tons of platonic relationships between two straight guys. It is the norm. It's not suddenly in danger because Johnny Storm of all characters is outed as bisexual. In fact wouldn't it be a testament to their friendship if Johnny came out and their dynamic stayed the same? It's so rare to see a really close friendship between a straight man and gay/bisexual man and that deserves to be represented too.

    Also, Johnny is apart of the Fantastic Four he's not under the Spider-man umbrella. Him possibly being bi shouldn't not happen because of a character not apart of the FF-line (and a character it wouldn't effect at all because Peter will always be straight). People are gonna ship characters together no matter what. That's no reason not to do it. They'll ship them anyway because it's what they want to do and I don't see why that should be a reason not to have Johnny be bi. Like people ship Sue with many characters other than Reed, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to happen. It's just one of the things that happens in fandoms and those who ship Johnny with Peter are going to continue no matter what. It's not a valid reason to oppose this.
    Yes, Johnny can be bi and have the same dynamic with Peter. I have already stated this.

    My point is the ends don't justify the means. The reason someone thinks Johnny is bi is just as important as the issue of representation.

    Let's imagine there is a male superhero that fans think could be transgender. We will call him Superhero X. Now let's imagine the reason fans think Superhero X is transgender is because they looked over his 50-year comic history and noticed he gets into a lot of car accidents. Society dictates that women are bad drivers, so it "makes sense" to fans that Superhero X is a woman born in a man's body.

    Now imagine Marvel responds and canonizes Superhero X as transgender. Was this a progressive or regressive move? There would be a genuine debate to be had in such situation. There would be more representation now that Superhero X is transgender, but the reason for it originated from the sexist belief that women suck at driving. It would be representation built on a sexist foundation.

    The Johnny debate is the same way. If his bromance with Peter is one of the reasons fans think he is Bi (which a lot of fans in this thread do), I think there is a debate to be had about it.

    That being said, there are other good reasons to think Johnny is Bi. Not every example listed here is sexist, just the ones regarding Peter are.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-15-2020 at 12:05 PM.

  12. #252
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Have you read any issues of him with Daken?
    No, mainly just read the Lee/ Kirby, Byrne, and Hickman runs and bits and pieces of other stuff...like some of his early solo adventures.

  13. #253
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Johnny’s been around for 60 or 70 years.

    He dresses flamboyantly. He has some male friends. So what?

    In comics I’ve read...which include hundreds of FF issues..I’ve not seen any convincing evidence that he’s bi. Can somebody point me to some specific evidence?

    Perhaps better question is: is there a really compelling case to start writing as such? Would it be more interesting to do that than writing say Franklin or Sue or Uncle Tom Cobley as bi? If so, why?
    I think there are instances that could be interpreted as Johnny having attraction to the same gender, but some disagree and that's fair.

    I believe that there is definitely potential for interesting storytelling.

    Johnny's rigid views of how a family should be makes him rush into relationships because he wants what Sue and Reed have, so I can see him repressing an aspect of himself to have the "ideal" family unit.
    The trials of dating as some aren't comfortable dating bisexual men due to their own insecurities and preconceptions.
    The FF are celebrities too so there are tons of things from that side that can be explored. Like new avenues opening and some closing from him coming out.
    Plus it's would be good representation for both the Fantastic Four and Marvel as a whole (which isn't in of itself a bad thing like some people make it out to be)

    I can think of a few more.

    On the Franklin, Sue thing. I'd have no problem if Franklin was revealed not to be straight, my only issue is that Franklin could easily regress back to a kid whenever a writer wants and it would be practically lost.
    I believe Sue to be straight and even then she's married to Reed so nothing would really come of it. That's not to say bisexual people can't be in committed relationships/marriage, just that I don't see it being explored with Sue the way it should be if it were Johnny or Franklin.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Yes, Johnny can be bi and have the same dynamic with Peter. I have already stated this.

    My point is the ends don't justify the means. The reason someone thinks Johnny is bi is just as important as the issue of representation.

    Let's imagine there is a male superhero that fans think could be transgender. We will call him Superhero X. Now let's imagine the reason fans think Superhero X is transgender is because they looked over his 50-year comic history and noticed he gets into a lot of car accidents. Society dictates that women are bad drivers, so it "makes sense" to fans that Superhero X is a woman born in a man's body.

    Now imagine Marvel responds and canonizes Superhero X as transgender. Was this a progressive or regressive move? There would be a genuine debate to be had in such situation. There would be more representation now that Superhero X is transgender, but the reason for it originated from the sexist belief that women suck at driving. It would be representation built on a sexist foundation.

    The Johnny debate is the same way. If his bromance with Peter is one of the reasons fans think he is Bi (which a lot of fans in this thread do), I think there is a debate to be had about it.

    That being said, there are other good reasons to think Johnny is Bi. Not every example listed here is sexist, just the ones regarding Peter are.
    Not the same as people can be attracted to their friends and depicting that is not offensive in the hypothetical scenario that Marvel would ever do that. Which I think they won't and shouldn't.
    Last edited by Crimz; 05-16-2020 at 01:49 AM.
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  14. #254

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    Let's see. On the gay side... a guy with pheromone powers.

    On the hetero side... Dorrie Evans, Crystal, Frankie Raye, Alicia Masters/Lyja, Medusa, Kourtney Keaton, etc. And now he even found his soulmate, Sky!


  15. #255
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    Let's see. On the gay side... a guy with pheromone powers.

    On the hetero side... Dorrie Evans, Crystal, Frankie Raye, Alicia Masters/Lyja, Medusa, Kourtney Keaton, etc. And now he even found his soulmate, Sky!

    And? Many real life bisexuals have dating histories that's full of the opposite gender until they came out (sometimes even after they have).
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