So.... Johnny Storm is definitely bi right?

[CaptCleghorn]

Let's see. On the gay side... a guy with pheromone powers.

On the hetero side... Dorrie Evans, Crystal, Frankie Raye, Alicia Masters/Lyja, Medusa, Kourtney Keaton, etc. And now he even found his soulmate, Sky!

There are two different arguments being made here. One, IS Johnny bisexual based on history. Two, SHOULD he be written as bisexual in the future. Outside of Daken (and I haven't read that story), there is little actual evidence, but plenty of scenes that would fit the profile. I agree that going over Johnny's near 60 years of stories, his character screams hetero. The argument I'm making is that to better reflect the diversity of people and the lack of diversity in early 1960's characters, Johnny needs some expansion in that category.

[stingray]

About 1961

Clearly you've never read any of the FF stories from 1961.

[JackDaw]

There are two different arguments being made here. One, IS Johnny bisexual based on history. Two, SHOULD he be written as bisexual in the future. Outside of Daken (and I haven't read that story), there is little actual evidence, but plenty of scenes that would fit the profile. I agree that going over Johnny's near 60 years of stories, his character screams hetero. The argument I'm making is that to better reflect the diversity of people and the lack of diversity in early 1960's characters, Johnny needs some expansion in that category.

In general terms, I’m not sure that Marvel super hero comics is a good place to do this sort of story.

Imagine Johnny started dating a guy and it became a long term relationship leading to marriage. How would his close friends, family, and Marvel’s other main heroes react??

My predictions: they would all be totally supportive.

Would Ben make a few jokes in poor taste? I doubt it.

Would any of his friends shun him? I doubt it.

It would..I think...dodge all the main issues.

But...you’re right...changes are needed to better reflect diversity. And I’ll readily admit that if decision was made to run with a bi-storyline Johhny would be a good choice.

[Storm17]

Clearly you've never read any of the FF stories from 1961.

I've read almost every issue from 1961 to 2020. Just missed a few boring ones in the 300s.


Also people, bisexuality isn't just a 50/50 thing. People lean in certain ways, it's a spectrum. It is entirely possible that Johnny is bisexual but prefers women, but hes still bi.

[ARkadelphia]

There are two different arguments being made here. One, IS Johnny bisexual based on history. Two, SHOULD he be written as bisexual in the future. Outside of Daken (and I haven't read that story), there is little actual evidence, but plenty of scenes that would fit the profile. I agree that going over Johnny's near 60 years of stories, his character screams hetero. The argument I'm making is that to better reflect the diversity of people and the lack of diversity in early 1960's characters, Johnny needs some expansion in that category.

I hear what you’re saying in your last sentence about characters in general. But I’m confused as to why you say it has to be specifically Johnny.

[ARkadelphia]

In general terms, I’m not sure that Marvel super hero comics is a good place to do this sort of story.

I can’t say I agree. I’ve always felt that Marvel usually does a solid job with social issues in general. Look at all those old Stan’s Soapboxes which always seemed to be ahead of the curve compared to other media.

[CaptCleghorn]

I hear what you’re saying in your last sentence about characters in general. But I’m confused as to why you say it has to be specifically Johnny.

Johnny is really the only possible member of the four that an updating (for want of a better word) of sexual prefer acne would work for. Reed and Sue are pretty much off-limits for this as their marriage is something Marvel and I would like to see continue. Ben is pretty much the same with his current relationship with Alicia. Now, any of them could have had a same-sex relationship in the past, but a current relationship or contemplation of one is a better story than a newly discovered historical happening.

[JackDaw]

I can’t say I agree. I’ve always felt that Marvel usually does a solid job with social issues in general. Look at all those old Stan’s Soapboxes which always seemed to be ahead of the curve compared to other media.

I certainly agree that Stan was “ahead of the curve”...and not just in regard to his Soapbox articles.

For example, there was a really good storyline in one of the early Sgt Fury and his Howling Commandos...where he showed Reb starting as a racist...but gradually realising he was in the wrong.

It was actually that storyline that made me wonder if Marvel had the guts to do something similar now.

I’m not sure they have.

Would they really run a storyline now that showed one of the main heroes as anything but totally on board with Johnny being bi?

[Sutekh]

I’m not sure they have.

Would they really run a storyline now that showed one of the main heroes as anything but totally on board with Johnny being bi?

I thought PAD did a fairly nuanced take on Rictor's coming out during his X-Factor run. Guido kept making kind of inappropriate jokes about it 'So I guess you like gladiator movies now...' Rahne wondered if their failed relationship 'turned him gay.' I remember feeling at the time that it was cool that he was including some of Rictor's friends (and past lovers) reacting less than perfectly.

Contrast to a later Young Avengers book where Hulkling and Wiccan meet Captain America, and he's offering them a place to stay and Hulkling gets a little snarky and says they'll just need one room, because they're boyfriends, and Captain America just sort of blankly wanders off, and I felt like Cap was sort of editorially required to not have any sort of reaction there (because it could be controversial, in either direction), and that Hulkling was kind of pushing for one...

That's the sort of thing I *wouldn't* want from a Johnny-kisses-a-boy moment, for everyone else in his life to be written as having no emotional reaction to it whatsoever (although the reverse isn't true either, the very last thing I'd want is for someone's favorite character to flip out in a homophobic rage!). But I could see Sue having some serious concerns as to whether or not he's taking this seriously (engendered in part by his lack of taking many of his previous relationships seriously, in her eyes, since she's way more 'stand by this one partner for the rest of my life' and he's a bit more serial-monogamy), or Ben taking on the 'Guido' role and making some snarky comments that tread the line between good-natured ribbing and 'I'm hurt you never told me.'

[JackDaw]

I thought PAD did a fairly nuanced take on Rictor's coming out during his X-Factor run. Guido kept making kind of inappropriate jokes about it 'So I guess you like gladiator movies now...' Rahne wondered if their failed relationship 'turned him gay.' I remember feeling at the time that it was cool that he was including some of Rictor's friends (and past lovers) reacting less than perfectly.

Contrast to a later Young Avengers book where Hulkling and Wiccan meet Captain America, and he's offering them a place to stay and Hulkling gets a little snarky and says they'll just need one room, because they're boyfriends, and Captain America just sort of blankly wanders off, and I felt like Cap was sort of editorially required to not have any sort of reaction there (because it could be controversial, in either direction), and that Hulkling was kind of pushing for one...

That's the sort of thing I *wouldn't* want from a Johnny-kisses-a-boy moment, for everyone else in his life to be written as having no emotional reaction to it whatsoever (although the reverse isn't true either, the very last thing I'd want is for someone's favorite character to flip out in a homophobic rage!). But I could see Sue having some serious concerns as to whether or not he's taking this seriously (engendered in part by his lack of taking many of his previous relationships seriously, in her eyes, since she's way more 'stand by this one partner for the rest of my life' and he's a bit more serial-monogamy), or Ben taking on the 'Guido' role and making some snarky comments that tread the line between good-natured ribbing and 'I'm hurt you never told me.'

Thanks, for the detail... I don’t read that much modern Marvel..so your reply was enlightening for me.

I think your suggested line would probably be the best way forward. ( Put it this way..I was brooding on various ways it might be written as I did my morning walk...and your suggestion is better than anything I came up with.)

[Midnight_v]

There are two different arguments being made here. One, IS Johnny bisexual based on history. Two, SHOULD he be written as bisexual in the future. Outside of Daken (and I haven't read that story), there is little actual evidence, but plenty of scenes that would fit the profile. I agree that going over Johnny's near 60 years of stories, his character screams hetero. The argument I'm making is that to better reflect the diversity of people and the lack of diversity in early 1960's characters, Johnny needs some expansion in that category.

There are two different arguments being made here. One, IS Johnny bisexual based on history. Two, SHOULD he be written as bisexual in the future. Outside of Daken (and I haven't read that story), there is little actual evidence, but plenty of scenes that would fit the profile. I agree that going over Johnny's near 60 years of stories, his character screams hetero. The argument I'm making is that to better reflect the diversity of people and the lack of diversity in early 1960's characters, Johnny needs some expansion in that category.

Yeaaahhh, no. Someone somewhere is reading that character loving him as is and revisionist history to reflect "Modernity" is almost always and excuse say "appease ME" at the expense of others, and to be sure it is at the expense of others.
Also, I'm also not a fan of the stereotypical meme of tough guy or playboy ladies man but all those ladies are really "Beard" (a word I'd never heard before till recently, thanks internets) or in johnny's case more a 5 o'clock shadow.
It seems trite and bereft of originality at this point to the point of silliness, thank you American beauty...
Changing Someone fundamentally in that way isn't appeasing and you gotta think about the opposite happening, people don't care they just want what they want mostly but that's short term and selfish thinking.

I want something "Good" and "Worthy" from a narrative sense not something to "appease" or "make up for lost time". I amazed sometimes how different the mark is sometimes: for example: I black characters, specifically Night Thrasher, Blade, and Cloak to be used more and brought to the forefront. However, I don't think... I want a reveal that Iron Man has been Dwayne Talyor~ Blade has been in the Spider-Man outfit ~ Cloak has been glimmered and Acting as Strange for X issues. I don't want these guys to be something they're not... and maybe its different because people don't have "HEROES" in mind when these things get brought up. *rubs chin thoughtfully* I'm disappointed that instead of really pushing for daken to have a real growth and development change into hero... a story worth telling MORE than just sexuality... the push is always for things like this. *sigh*

Maybe someone will hear you, but there's a lot better ways that going after someone with an already established sexuality, and notoriety, but the maybe that's the point idk. Oh well, good luck with it.

[CaptCleghorn]

I certainly agree that Stan was “ahead of the curve”...and not just in regard to his Soapbox articles.

For example, there was a really good storyline in one of the early Sgt Fury and his Howling Commandos...where he showed Reb starting as a racist...but gradually realising he was in the wrong.

It was actually that storyline that made me wonder if Marvel had the guts to do something similar now.

I’m not sure they have.

Would they really run a storyline now that showed one of the main heroes as anything but totally on board with Johnny being bi?

This is a thought-provoking idea. The statement that Marvel has always been in the SJW, progressive, anti-prejudice court doesn't really cover it. Would Marvel allow one of their major characters to be shown with homophobic thoughts? Ostrander's Heroes For Hire showed She-Hulk as being disliking Luke Cage due to his criminal record and that also was adjusted but these examples are few and far between.

I see Ben as giving Johnny crap but not in a seriously manner. But Ben's comments would be far from homophobic thoughts.

[BAS]

I'm sorry, but I don't 'bi' it.

While Johnny Storm has been shown to have strong bonds with male friends like Ben, Wyatt and Peter -- the only time it was suggested he had an intimate relationship with a man was with Daken. In the meantime -- he has always been shown to have intimate relationships with women --- some deep, some frivolous. Either way, he's been 99% shown to be heterosexual.

I have a problem with the Daken relationship in that the character of Johnny Storm was changed to tell the story the author wanted to tell -- and not the character dictating the direction of the story. Just because one person got it in his head it would be 'interesting', it doesn't mean it's true to the character.

[Sutekh]

On the side-topic of Johnny and Peter possibly having some chemistry, the subject of a gay / straight friendship, where one has an unrequited crush on the other, but both kind of brush it off for the sake of the friendship, could be interesting, but not with Johnny and Peter. IMO, it's a story that would be better told with Bobby and Warren, 'cause it seems, in retrospect, that there's no way Bobby couldn't have had a crush on Warren all those years as X-Men, Champions and Defenders, and equally unlikely that Warren didn't know and the both of them strenuously avoid addressing it...

[Ying Ko]

Johnny Storm is bisexual or gay only in the minds of those who choose to see him that way. I would dare to say that most of us readers don't actually see him like that at all.