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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It wasn't even a cover up. He was just buying time and throwing false trails for bats and barry. Mutilation of dead bodies was heinous act though. There is no denying it. But, then again he was trying to kill himself.
    Framing 2 people for mass murder is super villain shit, dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Wally West isn't a murderer. What happened was an accident. At worst, it was involuntary manslaughter (and even that characterization would be shaky). The problem lies more in the cover-up that Wally tried to perpetrate, and THAT, frankly, was completely out of character.

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    No, there is also tremendous fault in knowing that you're a walking death bomb and not informing anyone who spends every minute of every day in proximity with you. Yes, it was an accident. But there are some serious aggravating circumstances I'll detail in a second here.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Where does it says that? Show me a panel. If you are talking about the "burden" thing. When He was having the panic attack.He ran outside so that others would not get hurt, as matter of fact. So, there was no negligence on wally's part. But,the alarm rang the heroes got outside before wally could do anything to warn them his powers went haywire. So, it is involuntary manslaughter. He had no control of his actions, at the moment of crime.




    You can say wally shouldn't have put himself in that kind of stress to begin with. But, wally had no idea he was. He was put in a strange place with others to "heal". He had no idea if it was just a coercive tactic to keep him isolated in by the "heroes". He had no idea how this was supposed to help him. So, he decided to investigate to know if the place was real or facade. Sorrows causing him to have a panic attack was entirely an accident or out of his control. He had asked for clarification. But, they didn't give him a satisfactory answer, but playing the pr answers without evidence. So, Wally doubting was entirely on them.

    If you are blaming wally not telling others prior to the event. Well, its part of his privacy. Neither did barry his mentor did it. As matter of fact wally was minor when he got his powers. Barry and whom ever was responsible for wally at the time has to be blamed for that. Since, it wasn't wally's decision to take at the time. For example, superman had told the league regarding Jon's erratic powers early on. You could say wally had opportunity afterwards. But, he was following the standard set by barry. So, barry and all other speedsters will be as guilty.
    He says it the very next page you left out. It starts with the line "Here's the thing the Speedsters don't tell you" where Tom King retcons the ENTIRE HISTORY OF EVERY SPEEDSTER OF ALL TIME, in the process, but from Tom King's brain to the paper he has turned all speedsters into living bombs. He literally describes it as "You're making sure the world's most dangerous weapon stays put." Before Wally no one even knew there was a Speed Force (a term Wally coined) besides Max and Savitar. No other speedster can ever attest to having these feelings of holding back some dangerous instant kill explosion (because if they did will the villains would certainly freaking use it) because there no little to no proof or feeling or idea of a Speed Force for most Speedsters. But here we are. King literally wiped his boots on the entirety of both Max's and Wally's stories to establish that every. single. speedster. is a bad day away from killing all those around them.

    And yes, the second Barry accidentally explodes and kills a dozen people who trusted him and were assumed to be safe in the vicinity of him because he lost control of his powers it will be grossly negligent on his part, too. But Barry didn't kill a dozen people. If I walk into a fireworks show with some bombs I don't plan on blowing up in my backpack and, woops, a firework hits the bomb and kills a lot of people...I'm a lot more responsible for it than just an accident. Knowing the danger of what you're inflicting on others and persisting on that danger (especially in a world with fucking power depressing collars!) without telling them is morally repugnant.

    It's a stupid, shitty plot that doesn't deserve any respect or defense. But it is what happened.

    I can't stress enough how dumb and stupid and bad I think HiC is. What Wally did was technically not murder. But everything else, including the killing, involves gross, morally reprehensible insanity. A pure, tragic, understandable accident would be if Wally didn't know his powers could explode and kill people. But he knew. And he's a terrible person for knowing and doing nothing to stop or mitigate and or warn the people he was putting in danger.
    Last edited by Dred; 09-20-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Framing 2 people for mass murder is super villain shit, dude.



    No, there is also tremendous fault in knowing that you're a walking death bomb and not informing anyone who spends every minute of every day in proximity with you. Yes, it was an accident. But there are some serious aggravating circumstances I'll detail in a second here.



    He says it the very next page you left out. It starts with the line "Here's the thing the Speedsters don't tell you" where Tom King retcons the ENTIRE HISTORY OF EVERY SPEEDSTER OF ALL TIME, in the process, but from Tom King's brain to the paper he has turned all speedsters into living bombs. He literally describes it as "You're making sure the world's most dangerous weapon stays put." Before Wally no one even knew there was a Speed Force (a term Wally coined) besides Max and Savitar. No other speedster can ever attest to having these feelings of holding back some dangerous instant kill explosion (because if they did will the villains would certainly freaking use it) because there no little to no proof or feeling or idea of a Speed Force for most Speedsters. But here we are. King literally wiped his boots on the entirety of both Max's and Wally's stories to establish that every. single. speedster. is a bad day away from killing all those around them.

    And yes, the second Barry accidentally explodes and kills a dozen people who trusted him and were assumed to be safe in the vicinity of him because he lost control of his powers it will be grossly negligent on his part, too. But Barry didn't kill a dozen people. If I walk into a fireworks show with some bombs I don't plan on blowing up in my backpack and, woops, a firework hits the bomb and kills a lot of people...I'm a lot more responsible for it than just an accident. Knowing the danger of what you're inflicting on others and persisting on that danger (especially in a world with fucking power depressing collars!) without telling them is morally repugnant.

    It's a stupid, shitty plot that doesn't deserve any respect or defense. But it is what happened.

    I can't stress enough how dumb and stupid and bad I think HiC is. What Wally did was technically not murder. But everything else, including the killing, involves gross, morally reprehensible insanity. A pure, tragic, understandable accident would be if Wally didn't know his powers could explode and kill people. But he knew. And he's a terrible person for knowing and doing nothing to stop or mitigate and or warn the people he was putting in danger.
    He didn't frame anyone permanently. Wally's intend was to give up after doing what he had to. He didn't murder anyone.

    So,it's ok for barry to not tell others as long as he doesn't explode? . But, wally is somehow culprit of doing the same. It wasn't wally's decision in the first place. I refuted your claim by saying that wally west was a minor at the time. Here, in the page it says just barry and me. That was during when he was kid flash. They only knew their powers are burden and hard to control. Not that they will explode.at the time, responsibility was in the hands of barry allen. Like jon's responsibility is in the hand of Clark. Barry was the one To take decisions for wally. Wally only continued Barry's policy. It is hard for a guy to let go of things taught by their father figures as a kid.


    Barry is still the same as wally. He still has the same powers. He still didn't say it to anyone,either.he could have easily been in wally's shoes and samething would have have happened. But, i know this would/could have is not an argument. But, your analogy seems to only apply to one person. Barry is still running around. If he is a bomb like wally. Shouldn't he be stopped from going near firecrackers. Shouldn't he and others be restricted.

    And i repeat, he didn't know he was going to explode. He only knew his powers are hard to control and burden. But, he got a handle on it,till that moment . Wally only came to realise he was losing control and was going to explode at the moment. He tried to get away and it didn't work out. He barely got enough time to go outside was in too much pain. The collar is not something he could wear all the time or get to at that moment.

    Why is wally alone a terrible person? Does barry or any other speedser do anything to mitigate it? No.they don't. If you want wally in collars then others should be in as well.If your stuck on the weapon line by wally. Well, everyone in superhero community is dangerous weapon. Jon went boom like wally, too. The difference was it was in an isolated place with the titans and clark helping out. Clark could go boom as well.
    And all of this is Pointless,if the writer himself says it was involuntary manslaughter. Then what is point of arguing. Its like arguing whether batman killed the joker at the end of killing joke. It was never the intention.

  3. #63
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    I agree. It's incredibly, utterly, pathetically stupid. It makes no sense. It's bad writing. But what is written on those pages is morally repugnant. Barry SHOULD inform everyone around him that he could blow up and kill them all at any time. I guess they all now know that that is the case after what happened with Wally. When Clark was going boom, people knew he could go boom. Part of the story was the JL watching over him as he developed that new power.

    The only thing I believe King has said was that it wasn't murder. But murder isn't the only morally disastrous thing you can do.

  4. #64
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    To put it into real world terms it was essentially a guy blindfolding himself and shooting a gun different directions in a field randomly. Then being surprised there were people there and putting somebody else’s fingerprints on the weapon.
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  5. #65
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I agree. It's incredibly, utterly, pathetically stupid. It makes no sense. It's bad writing. But what is written on those pages is morally repugnant. Barry SHOULD inform everyone around him that he could blow up and kill them all at any time. I guess they all now know that that is the case after what happened with Wally. When Clark was going boom, people knew he could go boom. Part of the story was the JL watching over him as he developed that new power.

    The only thing I believe King has said was that it wasn't murder. But murder isn't the only morally disastrous thing you can do.
    Really, i heard someone from dc management say it. I don't know who. But, i could have sworn it was king. I mean, manslaughter is not even something an average person hears everyday.
    The thing is,when jon went boom as well. A bunch of renagade titans were even trying to kill jon before it happened. They didn't try to give him collar or anything. they went straight for the kill. Because they believed jon could go boom at an exponential higher way and is dangerous .And it happened in a similar way to hic. Clark knew Jon's powers were unstable. But, he didn't know he could go boom like this. But, the only difference is that he had given the trinity this information.


    We have no idea how the speedsters will be treated like if the truth got out. Jon got rejected by the titans.they said it wasn't because of jon. But, it did cause major doubts for jon in Bendis's run. So, it is also a matter of privacy and security. Wally couldn't go out and tell everyone how his powers are burden because its not his secret alone to tell. Its the entire speester communities.As l said, barry was responsible for wally when he got his powers.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-21-2019 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #66
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    Only the future Tim was in favour of killing him iirc and Raven Beast Boy were only prepared to hear him out due to their feelings of loyalty for him and even he ultimately sacrificed himself to save them. Anything involving BatTim was trippy and meandering all over the place.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    To put it into real world terms it was essentially a guy blindfolding himself and shooting a gun different directions in a field randomly. Then being surprised there were people there and putting somebody else’s fingerprints on the weapon.
    That's not remotely the correct analogy . He didn't know he could blow up. The analogy is a guy playing with a sparklers fire cracker that suddenly exploded,due to some mixup in chemicals. Is the guy at fault for playing with sparkler knowing it could burn and is dangerous? No.

  8. #68
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    Perhaps Geoff John's will reveal ultimately down the line that he was possessed by the dark flash and so is a victim himself.

  9. #69
    Spectacular Member Dark-Jacket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am no law expert, but does Accidental/involuntary Man slaughter get death sentence?
    I'm no law expert neither but not calling for medical help, trying to make others the culprit of the crime, risking them to kill each other is much more than accidental.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Jacket View Post
    I'm no law expert neither but not calling for medical help, trying to make others the culprit of the crime, risking them to kill each other is much more than accidental.
    First of, he was sanctuary because he needed help. If you are talking about the incident then dude barely got enough time to getout before he collapsed due to pain. How on earth was he gonna call for mediical help. He did frame people but not to get away.it wasn't permanent.
    Booster won't kill anyone. Harley being trigger happy is not wally's fault. Wally's idea was to jl get them on custody. Wally didn't coerce them to kill each other. She is responsible for her own actions. If i decided to kill someone because i thought someone did a crime. Regardless of whether that person was framed or not. The action and choice to kill was my own. I will be the one who is guilty not the guy that framed. The best you can do is blame him for the framing.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's not remotely the correct analogy . He didn't know he could blow up. The analogy is a guy playing with a sparklers fire cracker that suddenly exploded,due to some mixup in chemicals. Is the guy at fault for playing with sparkler knowing it could burn and is dangerous? No.
    Yes he did. It is directly in the text, Wally states it's a secret that every speedster keeps from everyone and a burden they deal with every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    First of, he was sanctuary because he needed help. If you are talking about the incident then dude barely got enough time to getout before he collapsed due to pain. How on earth was he gonna call for mediical help. He did frame people but not to get away.it wasn't permanent.
    Booster won't kill anyone. Harley being trigger happy is not wally's fault. Wally's idea was to jl get them on custody. Wally didn't coerce them to kill each other. She is responsible for her own actions. If i decided to kill someone because i thought someone did a crime. Regardless of whether that person was framed or not. The action and choice to kill was my own. I will be the one who is guilty not the guy that framed. The best you can do is blame him for the framing.
    Framing people isn't any better because you were going to come clean 5 days later. Who knows how fucked their lives would've become in those five days. Hell Harley was a hair's breadth away from killing Booster because of the situation Wally put them in. Stop pulling this "WELL THE FRAMING WAS ONLY TEMPORARY" nonsense. That doesn't make ANY better in the slightest. He still sicced the entire hero world on two innocent people, all to cover for him committing another enormous crime.

    You can blame him for lying, framing, mutilating the corpses of his friends and colleagues, hacking a private system to get confidential medical data and release it against the will of all involved to an unsolicited third party in an attempt to expose the medical history of all these people to the world (I can not stress how absolutely fucking insane it is that Tom King thinks this is a good thing. It's absolutely fucked, I have no clue what he was even pretending to go for), and then ABUSED TIME TRAVEL to make his wacky supervillain plan worked.

    Stop trying to absolve Wally's actions. They were beyond reprehensible in every way imaginable. Great, he's not a murderer on a technicality. What amazing standards we have.
    Last edited by Dred; 09-21-2019 at 04:28 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Stop trying to absolve Wally's actions. They were beyond reprehensible in every way imaginable. Great, he's not a murderer on a technicality. What amazing standards we have.
    This is the truth of it. Tom King wrote a terrible story and fans of the Wally West character are supposed to accept this awful interpretation of him. Another, better writer is going to have to come along and figure out how to clean up this mess.

    I don't even blame Tom King for this mess. Yes he wrote the story, but a good editor would have stopped him from destroying an iconic character. I blame editorial and publishing for letting this stuff happen.

  13. #73
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    Back in the days when Wally was the main Flash, he developed an unique explosive vibration ability that he sometimes used creatively in battle. Is what happened in HEROES IN CRISIS a variant of that power? What's different is that the previous power was completely voluntary and under Wally's control, whereas what happened in HEROES IN CRISIS wasn't.

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  14. #74
    Fantastic Member edpower's Avatar
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    They should 100% name the creature who possessed Wally Paraflash. #paraflash
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Back in the days when Wally was the main Flash, he developed an unique explosive vibration ability that he sometimes used creatively in battle. Is what happened in HEROES IN CRISIS a variant of that power? What's different is that the previous power was completely voluntary and under Wally's control, whereas what happened in HEROES IN CRISIS wasn't.

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    That only happened when he phased through things and he had long since gotten that trickiness under control. It was also unique to him and his mainline (Or it was, until Barry came back, and did it because that's what happened to everything with Wally), whereas in Heroes In Crisis Wally states that every single speedster is constantly struggling not to kill everyone around them.

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