Flash Forward #1 Discussion/Spoilers

[Godlike13]

This book didn't generate the discussion. Heroes in Crisis did.

This book in a nutshell...

[Nite-Wing]

Wally didn't just kill a bunch of heroes accidentally(really it wasn't an accident) he also framed Booster and Harley for his crime, mutilated a bunch of dead bodies and then he also leaked all the super personal and traumatic Sanctuary tapes to the media.
That's enough that he'll have a black mark on his record for awhile in the super hero community if he ever gets out of prison.

He really shouldn't even be getting an attempt at redemption this soon. If this whole mini was just about Wally being in prison and dealing with his actions then yeah that's something I'd be interested in reading.

Jumping right back to multiverse shenanigans though? After what he did? Nope not seeing

[Buried Alien]

The easiest answer doesnt even involve Wally

"Dr Manhatten possesed me"

BOOM

Manhattan did it to Firestorm; he could have done it to Wally too. Moreover, I see Manhattan having a real bone to pick with Wally as Wally was the one who exposed him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jekyll]

So i can't tell if the reception to this is good or bad, I wasn't gonna buy but I might, since it facilitated so much discussion

This book didn't generate the discussion. Heroes in Crisis did.

The book itself generated more discussion over in the Wally thread.

[Talon1load]

Manhattan did it to Firestorm; he could have done it to Wally too. Moreover, I see Manhattan having a real bone to pick with Wally as Wally was the one who exposed him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Wasn't it Ozymandaus and not Manhatten? The big blue guy was framed man.

[manwhohaseverything]

Wally didn't just kill a bunch of heroes accidentally(really it wasn't an accident) he also framed Booster and Harley for his crime, mutilated a bunch of dead bodies and then he also leaked all the super personal and traumatic Sanctuary tapes to the media.
That's enough that he'll have a black mark on his record for awhile in the super hero community if he ever gets out of prison.

He really shouldn't even be getting an attempt at redemption this soon. If this whole mini was just about Wally being in prison and dealing with his actions then yeah that's something I'd be interested in reading.

Jumping right back to multiverse shenanigans though? After what he did? Nope not seeing

Okay, when is harley getting a death sentence for her crimes?thought so. Harley shouldn't be an icon of female empowerment either. And it was an accident. As for booster gold #bros forgive each other.

[manwhohaseverything]

Manhattan did it to Firestorm; he could have done it to Wally too. Moreover, I see Manhattan having a real bone to pick with Wally as Wally was the one who exposed him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Change his manhattan's name to boogeyman

[James Hunter]

I haven't read any other replies at all (purposefully) and I have just read this issue so I thought I'd post my thoughts (I have no idea if I'm going with the majority but I don't care).

I have to admit I didn't hate this, it had its flaws (like Wally giving up hope which seems so uncharacteristic) but Iliked seeing some of Wally's rogues (like Girder and Murmur) and I did appreciate the pages when Linda went to see Wally at Blackgate, it gives me hope for the future.

I also like the idea of Wally exploring the Multiverse (I always have liked stories which explore the wider Multiverse) and I don't hate Tempus Fugit (or whatever his name is).

The cameo of Earth-23 President Superman on the last page was also welcome and I'm quietly hopefl that, by the end of this mini, Wally will be in a better place.

I went in exppecting very little but was pleasantly surprised by howmuch enjoyment I got out of this issue (I'm not a Lobdell fan but I was eminded how well Wally was written in the FLASH/SPEED BUGGY one-shot to!)

Just a few thoughts, make of them what you will....

[Doctor Bifrost]

Wally West isn't a murderer. What happened was an accident. At worst, it was involuntary manslaughter (and even that characterization would be shaky). The problem lies more in the cover-up that Wally tried to perpetrate, and THAT, frankly, was completely out of character.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Wally killed a bunch of people, but that was an accident.

Wally framed two people for the deaths, but at least that was meant to be temporary. (Still a terrible thing to do, and dangerous since it could lead to intense superpowered fights.)

But I don't see many people discussing him releasing the therapy transcripts of his friends and colleagues, and personally I think that that is the heinous crime he is most responsible for. It was utterly deliberate - the whole point of his "plan" - and not temporary in the least.

Making the therapy sessions of traumatized people public without there consent is wrong. It is a well-designed way to retraumatize them. It is a violation of their privacy, their most intimate and fraught thoughts, that they did not deserve in any way. I can see doing it - maybe - to demonstrate that the "patient" is a dangerous criminal who intends to continue hurting people in the future. But to do it to people you care about, people who (for the most part) you consider innocent, people who were just trying to get better so that they could continue to help the world? That's a terrible - many would say unforgivable - betrayal.

And why did he do it? Apparently to show "normal" people that even superheroes have problems, and there is no shame in seeking help. (That was the point, right?) Well, that might work in some cases. But it seems likely to me that, in far more cases, many people would say "if even superheroes using the most high-tech security in the world couldn't keep their therapy sessions private, then certainly my therapy sessions can be recorded, uncovered, released at any time. I can't possibly trust that my therapy sessions would remain secret." Seeing Lois Lane's article in the Daily Planet would probably convince many people not to go for help, because look what can happen - even to superheroes, much less ordinary people?

In Flash Forward, the Linda Park who barely knows Wally praises him for "releas[ing] confessionals to the world. You tried to make amends." Personally, I think it's one of the most wrong-headed and immoral things he did in Heroes in Crisis.

There is also the issue of practical fallout. There was never any mention of Wally in any way "editing" those confessionals. Are we to think that, in their private therapy sessions, superheroes didn't reveal their secret identities, the secret identities of others, weaknesses and other secrets that their enemies didn't know about yet? But we're already on to Year of the Villain and Leviathan, so I doubt these ramifications will ever be discussed, much less explored.

The death of thirteen superheroes in HiC was, at least, an accident. But manipulating and framing Blue Beetle and Harley Quinn was not. (The question of what Harley Quinn was doing there in the first place, and why Batgirl and others were so much kinder than they are to, for example Killer Moth, when Harley Quinn is a sociopathic killer who Amanda Waller has locked up in a cell and controlled by a brain bomb, is a completely separate question. But Harley's sexy and good at banter, so I guess that makes up for a lot...) And revealing his friends' most personal and traumatic secrets, for a poorly thought-out reason, was utterly deliberate. It doesn't "make amends" for his other misdeeds; it makes them worse.

And the fact that nobody - not Wally, not Booster, not Bruce or Barry - even thought about using the same technique that was used to make sure that Wally wasn't really dead to also protect the other thirteen heroes ("Hey, it turns out they were never dead at all - that wasn't their bodies you were seeing, but the corpses of mindless clones we manufactured in the 25th Century! We've had the real, living heroes hanging out in an abandoned summer camp all this time!") is pretty disappointing. Once you show that a technique is workable, you should at least address why you're not using it in other places it would be useful.

So, given that I think HiC was an utter character assassination of Wally West, didn't follow through on its own premises, and blows up the secrets of the heroes in a way that should have a major impact but is barely mentioned, the last thing I want is a sequel to it. Unless it's a sequel that undoes the entire story.

As for the complete scramble of who remembers what, and who Wally fought in the past, and whether it was as Kid Flash or the Flash, and which villains (or anybody) remember it in what way - I don't think that's a good way to do worldbuilding in a fictional universe. It's just a mess. It's a way to generate nostalgia ("Look, Girder and Tarpit want revenge on Wally West!") without doing the work to justify it. I think it's lazy. But since it is the status quo for most of the DCU right now, there's not much point in bringing it up.

But that's just me.

[Doctor Bifrost]

He didn't frame anyone permanently. Wally's intend was to give up after doing what he had to. He didn't murder anyone.

So,it's ok for barry to not tell others as long as he doesn't explode? . But, wally is somehow culprit of doing the same.

No, you're absolutely right. I mean, in comics written before HiC, Barry has no such responsibility, because it is not canon that speedsters might explode under stress and know it.

But as of HiC, Barry is just as responsible as Wally. They're both walking time bombs - have been for years - and have never told the people they work and fight alongside about the risk, or asked for help in eliminating the problem (technologically or otherwise). HiC is mainly a character assassination of Wally West, but it introduces elements that make Barry and some other heroes look pretty bad as well.

Which is another reason it should be wiped from continuity (or, as I should say for the current DCU, "continuity"), not made the basis for a sequel.

[Doctor Bifrost]

How does that not make her part of the event? She could have refused sighting journalistic ethics.

You're right. The story makes Lois Lane look bad too, just not as bad as Wally. (There was a lot of talk about how, if she didn't publish it, the bad guy would just send it to someone else who would, and she could put it in a better context, so they gave her some justification.) Another reason HiC should not be in continuity ("continuity").

And, you know, when people do illegal and/or immoral things (framing people, releasing private medical records), and those acts result in other actions that are in some ways predictable, or even the stated desire of the original person (the people who were framed wind up in potentially dangerous fights with those acting on the false information; the leaked medical records are leaked further), then - even if other folks were involved - the original individual bears a good deal of responsibility. "I didn't know that framing skilled heroes/villains for murder of superheroes might lead to dangerous results" is not really a defense. "I may have sent those files to a reporter, but she didn't have to publish them!" may say something negative about the reporter, but it doesn't let you off the hook.

By the way, if Lois Lane had decided not to publish the files, is it your impression that Wally would have stopped then? Or would he have continued to try different reporters until one took the bait? Or, perhaps, just put them up on the internet himself? It was Wally's intent to make them public. He bears a great deal of responsibility. (That doesn't mean nobody else did anything wrong, or stupid.)

[Doctor Bifrost]

There is also the issue of practical fallout. There was never any mention of Wally in any way "editing" those confessionals. Are we to think that, in their private therapy sessions, superheroes didn't reveal their secret identities, the secret identities of others, weaknesses and other secrets that their enemies didn't know about yet? But we're already on to Year of the Villain and Leviathan, so I doubt these ramifications will ever be discussed, much less explored.

A late note: Having read other responses, I must say I seem to be wrong about this. That Lois didn't release everything, and that Wally (for some reason) didn't go any further with his original plan to release everything. I am still not clear on exactly what information got out. I must have glazed over by that point.

[manwhohaseverything]

You're right. The story makes Lois Lane look bad too, just not as bad as Wally. (There was a lot of talk about how, if she didn't publish it, the bad guy would just send it to someone else who would, and she could put it in a better context, so they gave her some justification.) Another reason HiC should not be in continuity ("continuity").

And, you know, when people do illegal and/or immoral things (framing people, releasing private medical records), and those acts result in other actions that are in some ways predictable, or even the stated desire of the original person (the people who were framed wind up in potentially dangerous fights with those acting on the false information; the leaked medical records are leaked further), then - even if other folks were involved - the original individual bears a good deal of responsibility. "I didn't know that framing skilled heroes/villains for murder of superheroes might lead to dangerous results" is not really a defense. "I may have sent those files to a reporter, but she didn't have to publish them!" may say something negative about the reporter, but it doesn't let you off the hook.

By the way, if Lois Lane had decided not to publish the files, is it your impression that Wally would have stopped then? Or would he have continued to try different reporters until one took the bait? Or, perhaps, just put them up on the internet himself? It was Wally's intent to make them public. He bears a great deal of responsibility. (That doesn't mean nobody else did anything wrong, or stupid.)

Would have/could have has less of the point i was making.if what wally did was crime. Both clark and lois become willing partners and both of them become criminals as well. Barry was responsible for making decisions for kid flash wally west who was minor at the time. Barry chose not to share this information that the powers are hard to handle. Superman who is responsible for jon made a different decision regarding his son who had gone through same situation. Wally might not be absolved but he did not create the policy. Barry's responsibility is more than wally's.

[sifighter]

Hey look at it this way, now Wally West fans and Cyclops fans have a lot in common. We can tell you as someone who had their character literally called a monster for a few years after killing his mentor and the thing with the inhumans, things eventually get better after you get a really good writer on board

(Ps this was made mostly in jest I hope this doesn’t make anyone mad)

[manwhohaseverything]

Hey look at it this way, now Wally West fans and Cyclops fans have a lot in common. We can tell you as someone who had their character literally called a monster for a few years after killing his mentor and the thing with the inhumans, things eventually get better after you get a really good writer on board

(Ps this was made mostly in jest I hope this doesn’t make anyone mad)

But, cyclops was right./funny
Look at them now building a nation