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  1. #76
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Yeah...if Speedsters were constantly at a risk of blowing up, I think it would come up more.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Yes he did. It is directly in the text, Wally states it's a secret that every speedster keeps from everyone and a burden they deal with every day.



    Framing people isn't any better because you were going to come clean 5 days later. Who knows how fucked their lives would've become in those five days. Hell Harley was a hair's breadth away from killing Booster because of the situation Wally put them in. Stop pulling this "WELL THE FRAMING WAS ONLY TEMPORARY" nonsense. That doesn't make ANY better in the slightest. He still sicced the entire hero world on two innocent people, all to cover for him committing another enormous crime.

    You can blame him for lying, framing, mutilating the corpses of his friends and colleagues, hacking a private system to get confidential medical data and release it against the will of all involved to an unsolicited third party in an attempt to expose the medical history of all these people to the world (I can not stress how absolutely fucking insane it is that Tom King thinks this is a good thing. It's absolutely fucked, I have no clue what he was even pretending to go for), and then ABUSED TIME TRAVEL to make his wacky supervillain plan worked.

    Stop trying to absolve Wally's actions. They were beyond reprehensible in every way imaginable. Great, he's not a murderer on a technicality. What amazing standards we have.
    Where does it say that? Show me a panel.he says "it is a burden".How does that equate to blowing up? Powers being burden is a classic troupe. Jon didn't know he could blow up either. Only that his powers were hard to handle even for a kryptonIan. Wally and jon are both weapons.

    you are just moving goal post. First, you said wally is a mass murderer. Now, you are listing his acts, that i never said weren't terrible. In fact, i did the opposite . None of the above would cause a death sentence considering wally's mental condition and depression . You can't give a person death sentence for "mutilation of bodies" or "frame job". As for releasing data without permission. Wally is not alone guilty of that. Wally only gave it to lois. It was her judgment to release it. Clark and lois both decided to do it.as for hacking a "private" system, the sanctuary itself needs to stand the test of scrutiny. Wether it was legal or not. As for sick the superheroes on harley and booster, superhero community is not a bunch of jason todds. they would have taken booster and harley alive.



    The point of the story was to show that people who go through stuff like this aren't alone. It had to be done. The world needed to know heroes are humans. They have problems. That doesn't mean they should be afraid. And the others needed to know that they are not going through this alone. Batman has done worse things. He never went to jail for it. atleast wally went to jail for the crimes you listed.harley quinn has never answered for her crimes. And she was a mass murderer and serial killer. She was a willing accomplice of a bigger monster named joker. So part of the conspiracy. She should get the same punishment as the joker, Which is death.

    The quality of tom king's story wasn't my point of contention either. The point was, whether wally west is a murderer or not? . Does he deserve death sentence? .the answer is, he isn't and he doesn't .And you haven't shown me anything to make me believe otherwise. At no point, did wally had any idea he would go boom.And i will absolve people of what they didn't do.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-21-2019 at 11:01 PM.

  3. #78
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    We SHOULD NOT be having this discussion.

    Having this discussion validates HiC as a thing that happened. And yes, it happened, but so what? NO other DC book is concerned with continuity; everything either happened or didn't happen acording to whtaver writer wants, so fuck it.

    We should just let be clear that we don't want want Hic to be in continuity (Any continuity), period.

    And we should let be clear that this is not a valid take for Wally. Period again.

    Fuck HiC, fuck editorial vision on Wally, just fuck it. There, that's it.
    I still think the best way to handle it is Priest's idea for doing away with the New 52 by having Batman break the fourth wall, admit this was a giant screw up and ask everyone to pretend it never happened so they could move on to better comics.

    However, since DC ain't doing that, I'm curious to see how they figure their way out of the hole they've dug.

  4. #79
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I still think the best way to handle it is Priest's idea for doing away with the New 52 by having Batman break the fourth wall, admit this was a giant screw up and ask everyone to pretend it never happened so they could move on to better comics.

    However, since DC ain't doing that, I'm curious to see how they figure their way out of the hole they've dug.
    The job should not go to Batman, but the Joker.

    The cover will show the Joker pointing at us, laughing his butt off, clutching our cash in his hands.

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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Where does it say that? Show me a panel.he says "it is a burden".How does that equate to blowing up? Powers being burden is a classic troupe. Jon didn't know he could blow up either. Only that his powers were hard to handle even for a kryptonIan. Wally and jon are both weapons.

    you are just moving goal post. First, you said wally is a mass murderer. Now, you are listing his acts, that i never said weren't terrible. In fact, i did the opposite . None of the above would cause a death sentence considering wally's mental condition and depression . You can't give a person death sentence for "mutilation of bodies" or "frame job". As for releasing data without permission. Wally is not alone guilty of that. Wally only gave it to lois. It was her judgment to release it. Clark and lois both decided to do it.as for hacking a "private" system, the sanctuary itself needs to stand the test of scrutiny. Wether it was legal or not. As for sick the superheroes on harley and booster, superhero community is not a bunch of jason todds. they would have taken booster and harley alive.



    The point of the story was to show that people who go through stuff like this aren't alone. It had to be done. The world needed to know heroes are humans. They have problems. That doesn't mean they should be afraid. And the others needed to know that they are not going through this alone. Batman has done worse things. He never went to jail for it. atleast wally went to jail for the crimes you listed.harley quinn has never answered for her crimes. And she was a mass murderer and serial killer. She was a willing accomplice of a bigger monster named joker. So part of the conspiracy. She should get the same punishment as the joker, Which is death.

    The quality of tom king's story wasn't my point of contention either. The point was, whether wally west is a murderer or not? . Does he deserve death sentence? .the answer is, he isn't and he doesn't .And you haven't shown me anything to make me believe otherwise. At no point, did wally had any idea he would go boom.And i will absolve people of what they didn't do.
    I never called Wally a murderer. I called Wally incredibly, imorally negligent. I specifically gave you the page that he says it in. It is clear as day that, from King's writing, this is how it works. Wally talks about how all speedsters are constantly trying to hold this power back for fear of hurting everyone and how they have to always be in control. And that this "one second" he lost control he ends up killing everyone. I'm not moving any goal post. And I'm not sure why you're so doggedly defending King's garbage writing and ruining of the character.

    If the point of the story is that people who have mental struggles are an enormous danger to kill everyone around them then it's a pretty freaking shitty take on mental health. Those suffering like Wally are almost always the victims, not the perpetrators.

    I, personally, don't believe anyone "deserves" a death sentence. I'm morally opposed to the state killing people in the first place. And, once again, I said multiple times that Wally certainly is technically not a murderer. But he's still a horrible, dangerous monster when written by King. Abusing time travel for personal gain, something Wally was staunchly opposed to for his entire career until now, is also a terrible thing that Tom King made Wally do. Which has worse potential consequences than even murder.

    Wally very, very, very much knew he could go boom by Tom King's pen. Please reread the scene. He wouldn't be begging for all those people to get away from him in his inner monologue if he didn't know he could go boom.

    It is a fundamentally terribly written story that screwed up on so many fronts that it's hard to even give a concise explanation about how bad it was. These factors are never going to come up again. It was a one of butchering of Wally's character and history to serve the purpose of creating a poorly written ode against suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah...if Speedsters were constantly at a risk of blowing up, I think it would come up more.
    It's some bullshit that Tom King made up to make Wally kill a bunch of people unintentionally. Which, considering the tenor the story, was probably a late rewrite. His early interviews implied the story would be about why someone killed all these people and that was very much not the case here. Especially with how flat the "puddlers" angle fell.
    Last edited by Dred; 09-22-2019 at 04:00 AM.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I never called Wally a murderer. I called Wally incredibly, imorally negligent. I specifically gave you the page that he says it in. It is clear as day that, from King's writing, this is how it works. Wally talks about how all speedsters are constantly trying to hold this power back for fear of hurting everyone and how they have to always be in control. And that this "one second" he lost control he ends up killing everyone. I'm not moving any goal post. And I'm not sure why you're so doggedly defending King's garbage writing and ruining of the character.

    If the point of the story is that people who have mental struggles are an enormous danger to kill everyone around them then it's a pretty freaking shitty take on mental health. Those suffering like Wally are almost always the victims, not the perpetrators.

    I, personally, don't believe anyone "deserves" a death sentence. I'm morally opposed to the state killing people in the first place. And, once again, I said multiple times that Wally certainly is technically not a murderer. But he's still a horrible, dangerous monster when written by King. Abusing time travel for personal gain, something Wally was staunchly opposed to for his entire career until now, is also a terrible thing that Tom King made Wally do. Which has worse potential consequences than even murder.

    Wally very, very, very much knew he could go boom by Tom King's pen. Please reread the scene. He wouldn't be begging for all those people to get away from him in his inner monologue if he didn't know he could go boom.

    It is a fundamentally terribly written story that screwed up on so many fronts that it's hard to even give a concise explanation about how bad it was. These factors are never going to come up again. It was a one of butchering of Wally's character and history to serve the purpose of creating a poorly written ode against suicide.



    It's some bullshit that Tom King made up to make Wally kill a bunch of people unintentionally. Which, considering the tenor the story, was probably a late rewrite. His early interviews implied the story would be about why someone killed all these people and that was very much not the case here. Especially with how flat the "puddlers" angle fell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    What Wally did fell within negligent mass murder, which is death sentence or life depending.

    Wally was apparently aware that he was a danger to those around him and informed no one of his condition, which costed them their lives. It's like someone who knows they can't drive a car without losing control opting to drive a car and killing all the people driving with them.
    This was your quote. @bold you saying wally's actions falling into negligent mass murder.
    I have reread the scenes. I didn't interpret it like you did. There was nothing to suggest that he knew before hand he could blow. And enough evidence to back that when he came to know he was losing control he came outside. That is the moment he knew he was having a surge and was going to blow. I have provided panels for logic. It is based entirely on what's on page. As for tom king's intention i don't know what he wanted.And i don't care.i never defended anything, except for wally being murderer charge and chances of him being given death penalty .Falsely labeling is what i am against.there were people other than you saying he will get death sentence and that he was a murderer.
    Here i found what tom king had said,
    King addressed the book's take on Wally West/Flash, which was also controversial, saying, "Wally was my Flash growing up. He was the Peter Parker of the DCU. It was tough on him because it was like the symbol of Rebirth killing people. First of all, Wally doesn't murder anyone, that doesn't happen. There's heroism in being vulnerable. To always say I'm strong is not to be strong, it's to be arrogant."
    What he said matches my interpretation, not yours.
    Source:https://www.cbr.com/king-gerads-reac...isis-backlash/
    I don't care about the book itself nor am i fan of king.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-22-2019 at 04:40 AM.

  7. #82
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    Wally sent the information to Lois with the full intent of her making it public.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wally sent the information to Lois with the full intent of her making it public.
    How does that not make her part of the event? She could have refused sighting journalistic ethics. She, clark and wally all came to the conclusion that it was better to release the story. They finished what wally started. So, inshort if you are blaming wally for that you should blame the other two. If not, don't blame wally alone.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    This was your quote. @bold you saying wally's actions falling into negligent mass murder.
    I have reread the scenes. I didn't interpret it like you did. There was nothing to suggest that he knew before hand he could blow. And enough evidence to back that when he came to know he was losing control he came outside. That is the moment he knew he was having a surge and was going to blow. I have provided panels for logic. It is based entirely on what's on page. As for tom king's intention i don't know what he wanted.And i don't care.i never defended anything, except for wally being murderer charge and chances of him being given death penalty .Falsely labeling is what i am against.there were people other than you saying he will get death sentence and that he was a murderer.
    Here i found what tom king had said,

    What he said matches my interpretation, not yours.
    Source:https://www.cbr.com/king-gerads-reac...isis-backlash/
    I don't care about the book itself nor am i fan of king.
    You know, I'll give you that one. I meant mass negligent homicide. I apologize for the poor communication.

    He speaks about how every single speedster struggles with the same burden, man. If he didn't know he could blow up he wouldn't have tried to get away because he wouldn't be a danger to anyone else. You amusingly skipped the panels that have Wally's entire breakdown on what's going on. He literally calls it a weapon. A weapon he and every other speedster has to HOLD BACK for fear of it getting out. What else is a weapon besides something that causes harm? Something that will kill?

    Murder isn't the only thing people get the death penalty for. The kind of things Wally did would make him, in one fell swoop, one of the most dangerous and insane criminals around. A step below the likes of Thawne for the same reason: Flagrant abuse of time travel to commit heinous, psychopathic crimes. Though he does fall short of murder. Hooray. We're at your goal post and that goal post is still utter, character ruining trash that makes Wally a no questions asked bad guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How does that not make her part of the event? She could have refused sighting journalistic ethics. She, clark and wally all came to the conclusion that it was better to release the story. They finished what wally started. So, inshort if you are blaming wally for that you should blame the other two. If not, don't blame wally alone.
    Lois didn't make everything public. She shared it with Clark and they released an incredibly annotated description of what happened and Superman gave a mediocre speech to explain it. Wally tried to. Which is just downright awful.

    The only thing they revealed was that A: Sanctuary exists and B: A lot of heroes died there. Wally was the one who leaked the entire private traumatic lives of the majority of the people he knows and loves.

    Honestly, I'm done talk about this. This isn't a Heroes in Crisis thread and I hate the comic so fucking much and I don't know why I even allowed myself to get dragged into talking about it by someone defending it tooth and nail for reasons I cannot comprehend. I'd like it if we all stopped talking about Heroes in Crisis and just talk about Flash Forward in this, the Flash Forward thread. Feel free to respond one last time but I am absolutely done.
    Last edited by Dred; 09-22-2019 at 05:07 AM.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You know, I'll give you that one. I meant mass negligent homicide. I apologize for the poor communication.

    He speaks about how every single speedster struggles with the same burden, man. If he didn't know he could blow up he wouldn't have tried to get away because he wouldn't be a danger to anyone else. You amusingly skipped the panels that have Wally's entire breakdown on what's going on. He literally calls it a weapon. A weapon he and every other speedster has to HOLD BACK for fear of it getting out. What else is a weapon besides something that causes harm? Something that will kill?

    Murder isn't the only thing people get the death penalty for. The kind of things Wally did would make him, in one fell swoop, one of the most dangerous and insane criminals around. A step below the likes of Thawne for the same reason: Flagrant abuse of time travel to commit heinous, psychopathic crimes. Though he does fall short of murder. Hooray. We're at your goal post and that goal post is still utter, character ruining trash that makes Wally a no questions asked bad guy.



    Lois didn't make everything public. She shared it with Clark and they released an incredibly annotated description of what happened and Superman gave a mediocre speech to explain it. Wally tried to. Which is just downright awful.

    The only thing they revealed was that A: Sanctuary exists and B: A lot of heroes died there. Wally was the one who leaked the entire private traumatic lives of the majority of the people he knows and loves.

    Honestly, I'm done talk about this. This isn't a Heroes in Crisis thread and I hate the comic so fucking much and I don't know why I even allowed myself to get dragged into talking about it by someone defending it tooth and nail for reasons I cannot comprehend. I'd like it if we all stopped talking about Heroes in Crisis and just talk about Flash Forward in this, the Flash Forward thread. Feel free to respond one last time but I am absolutely done.
    That's a faulty logic. Have you heard of the cardboard speech of superman in dcau?Could that superman explode? No. Is that clark a weapon? Hell yeah!.he knows it and controls it. So hence it's burden for him(like wally) and world feels like it is made of card board. He came outside because he was having panic attack and he knew he was losing control. He specifically put emphasis on that second in his monologue to let us know that wally didn't know prior.
    A bomb isn't the only weapon. Guns are weapon as well. A sparkler can also be a weapon that can cause harm. I have put this analogy before. A person uses a sparkler which blows up. A sparkler is dangerous. But, it is never suppose to blow up. But, it did because of unforeseen mixup. Its not the welder's fault.

    Sure, what else has wally done to deserve death penalty? You haven't listed any. Now, i feel you are being hyperbolic. Really,Thawne. wally had not done anything bad enough to warrant that.the most heinous act he did was mutilation of the bodies And the dead don't tell tales. I am still not condoning it. Its an awful act. I never said it wasn't trash. It is. I agree.
    No, they also released why sanctuary exists and its purpose. This can cause panic and doubts in people. Think about it. These superpowered individuals and some are like gods. Them having mental issues can be deadly. Case it and point the deaths that happened at the hands of wally. They could point to that. The hero community would have hard time operating in the open because of the media and pr nightmare.clark mitigated that with his speech.
    Who released it doesn't matter they all came to the same conclusion and released it. They became accomplices. And accomplices shoukd be treated the same.
    Listen, i am pretty bone headed. I apologise if i wasted your time. I hate the book as well. But, i refuse to believe wally has become irredeemable.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-22-2019 at 06:11 AM.

  11. #86
    Spectacular Member Earth-2 Refugee's Avatar
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    While reading this, I was wondering why Justice Incarnate wasn't involved, but hopefully that is explained with President Superman at the end. I also want Wally to join Justice Incarnate and be the tether to the main universe so we can get a Justice Incarnate series.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    While I did enjoy the first issue more than I thought that I would, the quicker we are far and away from Tom King's horrid story the better.
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    Current Pulls: Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Venom, Immortal Hulk, Guardians of The Galaxy, Ghost Rider, Flash Forward, Justice League, & Shazam!

  13. #88
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    The easiest answer doesnt even involve Wally

    "Dr Manhatten possesed me"

    BOOM

  14. #89
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    So i can't tell if the reception to this is good or bad, I wasn't gonna buy but I might, since it facilitated so much discussion

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    So i can't tell if the reception to this is good or bad, I wasn't gonna buy but I might, since it facilitated so much discussion
    This book didn't generate the discussion. Heroes in Crisis did.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


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