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  1. #46
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Blackest Night and Brightest Day relied on countless stories in order to explain all of the resurrected heroes. After all, you can't resurrect someone unless they've died already.
    I'd hardly call "This is a list of dead DC characters" as being "reliant" on countless stories. It's more "these are the characters not popular enough to resurrect yet" then anything else since comic book death is a revolving door.

    Final Crisis depended on the Death of the New Gods and Infinite Crisis. Again, the New Gods couldn't possess people unless they'd died and of course they were able to take over the ruins of Blüdhaven because it had been destroyed in Infinite Crisis

    Infinite Crisis, in turn, relied on COIE.
    Aren't all the modern Crisis stories generally considered so-so? The only Crisis I've ever heard is a "classic" or "must read" is still the original.

    The Return of Barry Allen (and really the whole of Wally's time as the Flash) depended on COIE and Barry's death.
    This is the only one you've named I really consider a legitimate example here. But the thing is, this story, plus Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis are all dependent on a story made to retcon prior continuity! Your argument for continuity is largely founded on an event with the main goal of undoing continuity, that's just weird. That's like, a pro-reboot argument in disguise!

    There are many, many other examples, but I digress. The idea that the stories of the DCU don't rely on continuity just doesn't line up with the facts.
    I never said that some DC stories don't rely or couldn't on continuity, I said most of the great ones don't. And the facts are still kind of largely lining up with that.

    Not really. The Death of Superman animated movie was completely divorced in its own universe, separate from the comics universe, which was still populated with stories that depended on the events of that story to even function. For example, you couldn't have the animated version of Death of Superman in the main comics universe because then you'd have to explain how Hal Jordan became Parallax without Hank Henshaw and Mongul destroying Coast City as they did in the original comic. Hal Jordan as Parallax is what led to Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern, and then Final Night, and then the events of Green Lantern: Rebirth and the Geoff Johns GL run.
    Like you really couldn't have Coast City destroyed by someone else, or have Hal become Parallax because of some other reason, or introduce Kyle Rayner as a GL some other way. As if you couldn't possibly make better stories by changing any of those things or others. Again, I never ever once said that stories don't use things from earlier stories, I only said that the vast majority of them don't, and even fewer of the really good ones do.

    Do keep in mind I've never read a GL book - the GL mythos has just never really interested me as much as Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman.

  2. #47
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Who or what are Shogun Warriors or ROM?
    Marvel books from the late 1970s and early 1980s adapted from toys of the time, and somehow turned out better in the comics than they seemed to have a right to be.





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  3. #48
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Marvel books from the late 1970s and early 1980s adapted from toys of the time, and somehow turned out better in the comics than they seemed to have a right to be.





    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Cool, giant robots!

    Who did the toy lines, Hasbro, Mattel, etc?

  4. #49
    Constant in Opal Nine Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Cool, giant robots!

    Who did the toy lines, Hasbro, Mattel, etc?
    Mattel had the license for Shogun Warriors, which were based off Japanese creations.

    Rom was from, uniquely, Parker Brothers.

  5. #50
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nine Crocodile View Post
    Mattel had the license for Shogun Warriors, which were based off Japanese creations.

    Rom was from, uniquely, Parker Brothers.
    Thanks.

    I never knew Parker Brothers did anything beyond board games.

  6. #51
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Thanks.

    I never knew Parker Brothers did anything beyond board games.
    I think Rom was their only action toy, and it tanked hard. The toy was a complete failure, but improbably, the Marvel Comic became an unexpected hit and lasted for 75 issues (including five or six annuals), becoming an integral part of the Marvel Universe during the 1980s.

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  7. #52
    Astonishing Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I think Rom was their only action toy, and it tanked hard. The toy was a complete failure, but improbably, the Marvel Comic became an unexpected hit and lasted for 75 issues (including five or six annuals), becoming an integral part of the Marvel Universe during the 1980s.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    hehe, I loved ROM and his war with the Dire Wraiths. They even used the Dire Wraiths in the X-Men quite a bit as well because they were allied with the Adversary who was Forge's nemesis.

    Something I want to go back to because it's getting more obvious with the release of House of X #5. Jonathan Hickman wants to revamp the X-Men line, but he is completely embracing the previous history, putting call backs to Inferno, and the battle between Storm and Cyclops for leadership, weird characters that seemed to have no purpose are being used in unique ways. I love his promise that he wants to avoid making too many new characters and focus on re-using the low use characters to drive the upcoming stories. Even the villains, he rounded up every mutant X-Men villain and they all arrived to join the Island. You know that's going to go bad, but I loved that all those old villains are getting a chance to come out and play in the modern stories again. This is an example of a writer using the past history of the X-Men as a strength to drive the future of the line. All it took was a small retcon to make one character a Mutant that no one knew about, that one change allowed Hickman to take all that X-Men history and use all of it in a new way without losing any of it in the process. There are some readers going back to the 1960's to look for inconsistencies with the current story, and they will probably find several, but if there is a glaring inconsistencies that can easily be fixed with another small retcon to balance it out with the modern story.

    I think of all the lines where things like this happen on the DC side it's probably Green Lantern. Because the Green Lantern Corp exists off Earth it's easy for them to ignore reboots to a degree because the reboots only impact Earth's impact on the cosmic status quo. I feel like Green Lantern writers actually have the easiest go in line reboots because they don't lose as much of their character history in the process.

  8. #53
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I think Rom was their only action toy, and it tanked hard. The toy was a complete failure, but improbably, the Marvel Comic became an unexpected hit and lasted for 75 issues (including five or six annuals), becoming an integral part of the Marvel Universe during the 1980s.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Darn, maybe Disney can buy the IP from Parker Bros. and give it back to Marvel? I mean, they're obviously not doing anything with it.
    Are the stories collected to buy?

  9. #54
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Darn, maybe Disney can buy the IP from Parker Bros. and give it back to Marvel? I mean, they're obviously not doing anything with it.
    Are the stories collected to buy?
    I believe Hasbro owns ROM now, along with Micronauts, MASK, Visionaries, G.I. Joe and Transformers.

    And they currently have comic licenses with IDW for their properties.

    Recent new:
    https://www.idwpublishing.com/g-i-jo...ng-for-hasbro/

    Btw, in the article/interview is something I thought actually touched on something from this thread:

    "The G.I. JOE: A REAL AMERICAN HERO comic, originating at Marvel and continued here at IDW, maintains a steadfast following after hundreds of issues of continuity (the ongoing series, plus spin-off series, miniseries, and specials).

    What are your thoughts on the fandom that keeps coming back for more?

    Well, we wouldn’t be where we are today if it weren’t for the fans of the original G.I. JOE: A REAL AMERICAN HERO comics. Their passion, dedication, and loyalty to G.I. JOE is both inspiring and at times daunting.

    And for them particularly I want to make one thing very clear: as long as Larry Hama wants to keep telling G.I. JOE stories, he is more than welcome to as far as I’m concerned. "

    GI Joe: A Real American Hero continued the numbering from the Marvel run and features Hama maintaining the continuity from there.
    Most recent issue is #266 -
    https://www.idwpublishing.com/produc...ican-hero-266/
    Last edited by Lee Stone; 09-20-2019 at 06:18 PM.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  10. #55
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Darn, maybe Disney can buy the IP from Parker Bros. and give it back to Marvel? I mean, they're obviously not doing anything with it.
    Are the stories collected to buy?
    The ROM license is presently with IDW Comics. IDW did a run a few years ago, but it wasn't nearly as successful as the Marvel run of the 1980s. The problem was that Marvel built Rom's mythos directly and deeply into the existing Marvel Universe, and excising those elements (because they belonged to Marvel and not Parker Brothers/Hasbro) took out much of what made Marvel's ROM fun back in the 80s. At the same time, IDW gaining the ROM comic book license threw some of Marvel's ROM-related properties into legal limbo: the Dire Wraiths, for example, were the alien race that served as Rom's main nemesis throughout his Marvel series, but long after the Marvel ROM license expired, the Wraiths continued to be a presence in the Marvel Universe, featuring in stories as recently as this present decade. IDW somehow gained legal rights over the Wraiths too (which seems strange, as the Wraiths were created by Marvel writer Bill Mantlo), meaning it's been legally up in the air whether Marvel can continue using them.

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    Last edited by Buried Alien; 09-21-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'd hardly call "This is a list of dead DC characters" as being "reliant" on countless stories. It's more "these are the characters not popular enough to resurrect yet" then anything else since comic book death is a revolving door.
    Except it was. A lot of those dead characters actually played pivotal roles in the story. For example, Black Lantern Ronnie Raymond was a prominent part of the event. And how do we explain Ronnie being dead in the first place? Uh, Identity Crisis.

    Aren't all the modern Crisis stories generally considered so-so? The only Crisis I've ever heard is a "classic" or "must read" is still the original.
    They're still very famous stories, some of them being considered necessary reading. And that doesn't change the fact that, yes, a lot of them were reliant on pre-existing continuity.

    This is the only one you've named I really consider a legitimate example here. But the thing is, this story, plus Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis are all dependent on a story made to retcon prior continuity! Your argument for continuity is largely founded on an event with the main goal of undoing continuity, that's just weird. That's like, a pro-reboot argument in disguise!
    Yeah, no its not a pro-reboot argument. Its not as if COIE ended and Barry Allen was suddenly alive again running around as the Flash. No, the consequences of his death during that story remained. Also, Infinite Crisis actually undid a lot of the continuity changes made by COIE and Final Crisis didn't really rely on COIE. Final Crisis, however, did rely on Death of the New Gods and the destruction of Blüdhaven from Infinite Crisis.

    I never said that some DC stories don't rely or couldn't on continuity, I said most of the great ones don't. And the facts are still kind of largely lining up with that.
    You said most classic stories that didn't rely on continuity whereas I'd argue that most of DC's classic stories actually do, just by virtue that most of them take place in the main DC Universe. Does that mean you have to read all the preceding stories? No. But people should be cognizant of their role in shaping the DC Universe.

    Like you really couldn't have Coast City destroyed by someone else, or have Hal become Parallax because of some other reason, or introduce Kyle Rayner as a GL some other way. As if you couldn't possibly make better stories by changing any of those things or others.
    The point is that we don't have Hal becoming Parallax another way. That is just how it happened. You could try to fenagle some lame hodgepodge explanation, but a) it would just complicate things further and b) why go through all the trouble when you could just leave the story alone and let it be the way it was originally written.

    Again, I never ever once said that stories don't use things from earlier stories, I only said that the vast majority of them don't, and even fewer of the really good ones do.
    And I, again, would say a majority do. I mean, when you think of the stories that define DC comics and the mythology, a majority of them take place in the main DCU.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 09-21-2019 at 12:33 AM.

  12. #57
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Except it was. A lot of those dead characters actually played pivotal roles in the story. For example, Black Lantern Ronnie Raymond was a prominent part of the event. And how do we explain Ronnie being dead in the first place? Uh, Identity Crisis.



    They're still very famous stories, some of them being considered necessary reading. And that doesn't change the fact that, yes, a lot of them were reliant on pre-existing continuity.



    Yeah, no its not a pro-reboot argument. Its not as if COIE ended and Barry Allen was suddenly alive again running around as the Flash. No, the consequences of his death during that story remained. Also, Infinite Crisis actually undid a lot of the continuity changes made by COIE and Final Crisis didn't really rely on COIE. Final Crisis, however, did rely on Death of the New Gods and the destruction of Blüdhaven from Infinite Crisis.



    You said most classic stories that didn't rely on continuity whereas I'd argue that most of DC's classic stories actually do, just by virtue that most of them take place in the main DC Universe. Does that mean you have to read all the preceding stories? No. But people should be cognizant of their role in shaping the DC Universe.



    The point is that we don't have Hal becoming Parallax another way. That is just how it happened. You could try to fenagle some lame hodgepodge explanation, but a) it would just complicate things further and b) why go through all the trouble when you could just leave the story alone and let it be the way it was originally written.



    And I, again, would say a majority do. I mean, when you think of the stories that define DC comics and the mythology, a majority of them take place in the main DCU.
    So the most important part off all these countless stories Darkest Night relies on is...some characters were dead. That's not really building on what came before in any meaningful way. Did the how and why each character was already dead? Just feels like a list of "these are the currently dead characters we haven't bother to bring back yet". I don't know how I can explain this, it doesn't feel like it's reliant on continuity to tell a good story, just that it used continuity to pad the numbers of the zombie lanterns. Again, your argument feels more like "Stories use continuity!" when I never said otherwise. I'm waiting for "Continuity is important to telling good stories!" and I just don't feel like I'm getting it in this debate. And sure, some of them are famous stories - but are they great? And so what if Infinite Crisis undid continuity changes made by COIE? That just shows how little continuity really matters, it literally comes and goes around on a whim! And you've convinced me that all of one or two "classic" stories (and I don't even know if we agree on which stories are really classics to begin with) truly relies on prior continuity rather than merely takes place in continuity and doesn't do anything to break it. When I think of comics that define DC (Batman heavy, followed by Superman, but I'm working on expanding my collection - and some of it is secondhand knowledge):
    COIE - Maybe it relies on continuity.
    Dark Knight Returns - Out of continuity.
    Killing Joke - In continuity, doesn't rely on it.
    Death in the Family - Only bit of continuity it relies on is that the Robin who dies is the second Robin.
    Year One - Origin stories really can't rely on continuity, since they're the beginning of it.
    Death of Superman - In continuity, doesn't rely on it.
    Knightfall - In it, doesn't rely on it.
    Kingdom Come - Out of continuity
    Long Halloween - Relies on continuity (Year One), but also retcons continuity (Two Face's origin)
    Red Son - Out of continuity.
    Gotham by Gaslight - Out of continuity.
    All Star Superman - Out of continuity.

    A lot of classic stories that don't rely on continuity, even among the ones in it.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    So the most important part off all these countless stories Darkest Night relies on is...some characters were dead. That's not really building on what came before in any meaningful way. Did the how and why each character was already dead? Just feels like a list of "these are the currently dead characters we haven't bother to bring back yet". I don't know how I can explain this, it doesn't feel like it's reliant on continuity to tell a good story, just that it used continuity to pad the numbers of the zombie lanterns. Again, your argument feels more like "Stories use continuity!" when I never said otherwise. I'm waiting for "Continuity is important to telling good stories!" and I just don't feel like I'm getting it in this debate. And sure, some of them are famous stories - but are they great? And so what if Infinite Crisis undid continuity changes made by COIE? That just shows how little continuity really matters, it literally comes and goes around on a whim! And you've convinced me that all of one or two "classic" stories (and I don't even know if we agree on which stories are really classics to begin with) truly relies on prior continuity rather than merely takes place in continuity and doesn't do anything to break it. When I think of comics that define DC (Batman heavy, followed by Superman, but I'm working on expanding my collection - and some of it is secondhand knowledge):
    I mean, did you read Blackest Night. If you want to know whether or not the manner in which these characters died was important, the answer is: yes. For example, when Ray Palmer fought the Black Lantern version of Jean Loring, his ex-wife, she was still in her Eclipso identity and tormented him with a recreation of how she murdered Sue Dibny. So, yeah, we know that she had to die as a villain and that the events of Identity Crisis had to have happened for her presence to hold any significance. Additionally, Black Lantern Terra came back to torture Beast Boy, requiring Judas Contract to be in continuity and for BB's feelings for Terra to still be a thing.

    But it just seems that you're skirting the main point: the story of Blackest Night would have been impossible just as a basic concept if these characters hadn't died in the way that they died. That's irrefutable. The entire point of Blackest Night was that the heroes had to deal with fighting their fallen comrades. That means that the stories where they bonded with those comrades and where those heroes fell are important.

    COIE - Maybe it relies on continuity.
    Dark Knight Returns - Out of continuity.
    Killing Joke - In continuity, doesn't rely on it.
    Death in the Family - Only bit of continuity it relies on is that the Robin who dies is the second Robin.
    Year One - Origin stories really can't rely on continuity, since they're the beginning of it.
    Death of Superman - In continuity, doesn't rely on it.
    Knightfall - In it, doesn't rely on it.
    Kingdom Come - Out of continuity
    Long Halloween - Relies on continuity (Year One), but also retcons continuity (Two Face's origin)
    Red Son - Out of continuity.
    Gotham by Gaslight - Out of continuity.
    All Star Superman - Out of continuity.

    A lot of classic stories that don't rely on continuity, even among the ones in it.
    Killing Joke - established a new status quo for Barbara Gordon that lasted for over two decades
    Death in the Family - that's an important piece of continuity that the Robin in the story wasn't Dick
    Year One - still in continuity and was constantly referenced in subsequent stories (and still is)
    Death of Superman - still a huge piece of continuity that set up stories that impacted the DCU throughout the rest of the 90s
    Knightfall - again, still in continuity and set up Bane as "the man who broke the Bat" for the rest of time
    Long Halloween - again, still relies on continuity

    There's also Judas Contract, Terror of Trigon, No Man's Land, all of Gotham Central, all of the Giffen/DeMatteis JLI run, Ostrander Suicide Squad, Blackest Night, Sinestro Corps War, the Great Darkness Saga, COIE, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Zero Hour, The Return of Barry Allen, etc. All of these are canon and, in some form or another rely on past continuity. The out-of-continuity tales you mention are literally a handful by comparison.

  14. #59
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, did you read Blackest Night.
    I have not, and I told you I haven't read or have interest in any GL stuff. I'm just arguing on what little outsider knowledge I have and what evidence you've given me - and so far the only thing you've offered me is "Well, this character died in some other story, which lets him be a Black Lantern here, so isn't continuity super important to this story?" Which honestly, isn't an argument I'm feeling. Maybe if you offered more details beyond "dead characters from other stories who are only important because they're dead" and something about what from previous stories actually improves or makes Blackest Night a better story.

    If you want to know whether or not the manner in which these characters died was important, the answer is: yes. For example, when Ray Palmer fought the Black Lantern version of Jean Loring, his ex-wife, she was still in her Eclipso identity and tormented him with a recreation of how she murdered Sue Dibny. So, yeah, we know that she had to die as a villain and that the events of Identity Crisis had to have happened for her presence to hold any significance. Additionally, Black Lantern Terra came back to torture Beast Boy, requiring Judas Contract to be in continuity and for BB's feelings for Terra to still be a thing.

    But it just seems that you're skirting the main point: the story of Blackest Night would have been impossible just as a basic concept if these characters hadn't died in the way that they died. That's irrefutable. The entire point of Blackest Night was that the heroes had to deal with fighting their fallen comrades. That means that the stories where they bonded with those comrades and where those heroes fell are important.
    Not really - still seems like a lot of the important info is not "how they died" but simply that they died. But you know what, I'm not interested in the GL mythos or their events so I'm giving you this one just to move on...

    Killing Joke - established a new status quo for Barbara Gordon that lasted for over two decades
    Establishing continuity is not the same as being reliant on continuity. And how many really great, amazing stories came out of following and relying on the continuity TKJ established? Sure we got BoP, but many would argue that Barbara didn't need to be crippled for that, and many Bab's fans wish she never had been crippled and that TKJ hadn't been in continuity.

    Death in the Family - that's an important piece of continuity that the Robin in the story wasn't Dick
    Which I said. It's the only bit of continuity that matters. And arguably it only matters to not upset Dick Grayson fans.

    Under the Red Hood relies on that continuity, but the movie established the events of Death in the Family in like 3 minutes and made it so people who haven't a clue about continuity could follow it.

    Year One - still in continuity and was constantly referenced in subsequent stories (and still is)
    Mentioned it gets referenced when talking about Long Halloween. But Year One doesn't have any previous continuity it relies on, obviously. And New52 tried to retcon it, but it came back, and Superman and Wonder Woman's origin stories have both changed a few times since (Superman - Byrne's Man of Steel, Birthright, Secret Origin, Morrison's Action Comics, back to Secret Origin; Wonder Woman - from clay birth to Zeus is her daddy). So the continuity of Year One isn't anywhere near as important as its popularity. Year One is in continuity not because continuity is important, but because popularity is important - otherwise Superman's origin and Wonder Woman's origin wouldn't have changed.
    Which is your favorite Superman or Wonder Woman origin?

    Death of Superman - still a huge piece of continuity that set up stories that impacted the DCU throughout the rest of the 90s
    Again, setting up continuity is not the same as relying on continuity. Now Reign of the Supermen obviously relied on continuity.
    And since the 90s, after Reign and Parralax was all over, how much has that story really mattered? How many new stories rely on the fact Superman died once? Not referenced it, not made an offhand comment or joke about it, but where Superman having been dead for a while was a real and important plot point for that story working?

    Knightfall - again, still in continuity and set up Bane as "the man who broke the Bat" for the rest of time
    You know the drill - set up continuity =//= relying on continuity.
    And giving Bane a catchphrase isn't great. Honestly it's so overused I hate seeing Bane because "I broke the Bat" "I'm the man who broke the Bat" "blah blah blah broke Bat" has become a pet peeve of mine with the character. Bane's got to let go already, he's like a middle aged man hanging on to being the star quarterback in high school, we get it, you peaked years ago!

    Sorry, mini rant. Just not my favorite Bat villain...

    Long Halloween - again, still relies on continuity
    And again, also ignored and changed continuity

    There's also Judas Contract, Terror of Trigon, No Man's Land, all of Gotham Central, all of the Giffen/DeMatteis JLI run, Ostrander Suicide Squad, Blackest Night, Sinestro Corps War, the Great Darkness Saga, COIE, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Zero Hour, The Return of Barry Allen, etc. All of these are canon and, in some form or another rely on past continuity. The out-of-continuity tales you mention are literally a handful by comparison.
    Haven't read them all yet, will take me years to, but from how this argument has gone so far I'm going to go on a limb here and guess only half of those maybe actually rely on continuity, and others don't rely on it at all and merely is in continuity and doesn't break it. But don't tell me because I want to avoid spoilers (What? I've been reading DC comics only a handful of years and money is limited, going through all the classics is a process).

  15. #60
    Spectacular Member The_Lurk's Avatar
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    I think they started (or tried at least) with Rebirth to cancel the hard reset they tried with n52. Considering all the buildup towards Doomsday Clock, its (at the half I read so far) lack of feeling to belong or add to the continuity as it developed, opposed to the spontaneous METAL; which was a defacto universe changing crisis regardless on how much some downplayed it as silly distraction; I'd say they have a severe lack of foresight/long breath. They (the current leadership "they" at least) get distracted to fast by something shiny. Poor Jonni DC :P


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