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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'm more of a B.D./manga reader, really, so I realize I'm very distant from the usual comic crowd. The potentiality of a story being over wins me over, far more that the etneral continuity which makes no sense of Marvel.
    Except, that’s the thing: it DOES make sense at Marvel. That’s one of the things Marvel touts and that the readers enjoy. And that’s not to say they don’t retcon things, because they do, but those retcons usually come in the context of the larger mythology that goes back to the original stories from the 60s. DC used to do the same thing (and still kinda does with Rebirth) and it worked for DC too.

    Regardless of whether you think it’s something that you wanna invest in, it actually works. That can’t be argued against. We see it work for them. And again, it’s constantly used as a “reason” for why Marvel is “better” than DC. So, yeah, rebooting is hurting DC more in the long run than helping it.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 09-19-2019 at 12:09 PM.

  2. #32
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Problem is, a lot of fans might be displeased by what DC decides to retcon out of their history going forward if they do

  3. #33
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Well, Marvel can tell me that those GODZILLA, SHOGUN WARRIORS, and ROM stories I read during my youth in the 1970s and early 1980s are still part of their present continuity, but it's hard to sustain that fiction when Marvel can't even legally name the principals of those books anymore.

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  4. #34
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    I could see it working as a satirical one-shot parody that makes fun of all the Crisis events and reboots DC has had.

  5. #35
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Doomsday Clock 10 and Dr Manhattan's journey into the shifting histories of Superman make such a story for DC something that probably won't be accurate for very long. Marvel's had pretty much the same continuity since FF 1. Yeah, they've had to tweak, but compared with the changes DC's made with their continuity, Marvel's changes have been much smaller in scale.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Doomsday Clock 10 and Dr Manhattan's journey into the shifting histories of Superman make such a story for DC something that probably won't be accurate for very long. Marvel's had pretty much the same continuity since FF 1. Yeah, they've had to tweak, but compared with the changes DC's made with their continuity, Marvel's changes have been much smaller in scale.
    True.

    I like that if I wanted to, I could go back and read the Iron Fist or Doctor Strange runs in Marvel Premiere and know that they still happened, but they're not required reading if you're a new reader today.

    I like that someone can come in with House of X and become interested enough in the characters to maybe settle on a favorite or two and want to go back and read their earlier appearances.

    I remember when I first started reading comics and I had read the JLA/JSA/New Gods crossover around #182. I later had mentioned to a shop owner that it got me interested in Power Girl, Huntress and Firestorm. He then recommended I check out DC Super-Stars #17 which gave her origin, if I hadn't already.
    But that's how things were. You'd often be introduced to a character years after they first appeared and then become interested enough to track down their earlier appearances.
    I remember Booster Gold #1 startling me when it came out because the idea of a character first appearing in the first issue of their comic seemed weird, even though it had been done before.
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  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'm more of a B.D./manga reader, really, so I realize I'm very distant from the usual comic crowd. The potentiality of a story being over wins me over, far more that the etneral continuity which makes no sense of Marvel.
    I can understand that.
    And with the heavy emphasis on trade paperbacks these days, I can see how modern readers may prefer standalone runs that don't continue from previous runs and don't lead into another run after.
    That's where stuff like Vertigo came in. With books that started from scratch and had definitive endings, like 100 Bullets, Sandman, Y the Last Man and Fables.
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  8. #38
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Problem is, a lot of fans might be displeased by what DC decides to retcon out of their history going forward if they do
    Yeah, to be honest I would be kind of worried DC would just write the history in such a way that it skewed things more to editorial bias then actually gave a comprehensive history of the DCU.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Hahahahaha they can't even figure out their Present

    No, but seriously though History of DC Universe was retconned between 5 minutes of it being published... or was it Book of Krypton? I don't remember

    Point is, DC has done too many reboots, and they've done it in short intervals, even if it's a local retcon, and they hire star writers who like to go wild with continuity and worldbuilding, like how Morrison brought in Golden and Silver Age Batman after Post Crisis spent 10 years establishing those things aren't canon, Snyder brought in Dark Multiverse after Morrison established 52 Multiverse, King, again, combine Golden Age, Silver and Bronze of BatCat history before Johns is finished establishing what he's gonna do with Rebirth...

    As long as DC is still hiring those kinds of writers and allow them to do whatever there's no point in making a coherent history or timeline.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Hahahahaha they can't even figure out their Present

    No, but seriously though History of DC Universe was retconned between 5 minutes of it being published... or was it Book of Krypton? I don't remember

    Point is, DC has done too many reboots, and they've done it in short intervals, even if it's a local retcon, and they hire star writers who like to go wild with continuity and worldbuilding, like how Morrison brought in Golden and Silver Age Batman after Post Crisis spent 10 years establishing those things aren't canon, Snyder brought in Dark Multiverse after Morrison established 52 Multiverse, King, again, combine Golden Age, Silver and Bronze of BatCat history before Johns is finished establishing what he's gonna do with Rebirth...

    As long as DC is still hiring those kinds of writers and allow them to do whatever there's no point in making a coherent history or timeline.
    Agree with this.
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  11. #41
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    To answer the OP's question, I guess they could...if they stuck to things/events that are so fundamental that they're basically iconic to the DCU:

    - death of the Waynes and Batman: Year One
    - the destruction of Krypton
    - Diana coming to man's world
    - Barry getting struck by lightning
    - Hal getting the ring
    - formation of the JLA
    - coming of Supergirl to Earth
    - the formation of the Teen Titans and New Teen Titans
    - Judas Contract
    - COIE and Barry Allen dying
    - death of Jason Todd
    - Death of Superman
    - Hal Jordan becoming Parallax and Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern
    - Final Night
    - Knightfall, etc.

    It would also have to take a skeletal approach, basically just touching on those events.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 09-19-2019 at 09:11 PM.

  12. #42
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Well, Marvel can tell me that those GODZILLA, SHOGUN WARRIORS, and ROM stories I read during my youth in the 1970s and early 1980s are still part of their present continuity, but it's hard to sustain that fiction when Marvel can't even legally name the principals of those books anymore.

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    Who or what are Shogun Warriors or ROM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, to be honest I would be kind of worried DC would just write the history in such a way that it skewed things more to editorial bias then actually gave a comprehensive history of the DCU.
    What even is a comprehensive history of the DCU though? Was Batman on drugs and imagined all those wacky Pre-Crisis adventures like Morrison said? Because I hate that idea. Was Krypton the Pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis version? What about the killer of Batman's parents? Was Joe Chill hired to do it like Pre-Crisis?
    When most people talk about "the history of the DCU" what they really mean isn't something comprehensive, they mean Post-Crisis plus whatever Pre-Crisis stories carried over I think, nevermind ignoring all of the New52 except some of the Batman stuff.
    Honestly, the history of the DCU being any official thing doesn't really seem as important to me as some people claim. Very rarely is that history ever used to make a truly great story - usually it's just a mediocre story trying to remind you of a far superior older classic. When a new story becomes a legit classic itself while also being dependent on an earlier classic, then maybe history matters. Maybe. As is, I prefer a more broad strokes whatever works approach, and not every classic has to always remain in continuity. Just because it no longer "matters" to current stories doesn't make it less, doesn't mean it still doesn't matter as a rocking good story.

    And if DC decided that the official history no longer contains a fan favorite? People will bitch. And who wants to hear that?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Honestly, the history of the DCU being any official thing doesn't really seem as important to me as some people claim. Very rarely is that history ever used to make a truly great story - usually it's just a mediocre story trying to remind you of a far superior older classic. When a new story becomes a legit classic itself while also being dependent on an earlier classic, then maybe history matters. Maybe. As is, I prefer a more broad strokes whatever works approach, and not every classic has to always remain in continuity. Just because it no longer "matters" to current stories doesn't make it less, doesn't mean it still doesn't matter as a rocking good story.
    I'd argue that most of DC's great stories rely on some form of continuity. That's just how a shared universe works. Aside from that though, I'd be on board with a more skeletal, broad strokes approach that allows the reader to fill in the gaps. However, there still needs to be agreement on the BIG stories, the benchmarks of DC mythology. The Death of Superman saga, I'd argue, is a one of the big stories in that it helped to define Superman throughout the rest of the 90s and into the 2000s. That one needs to be in continuity as originally told. I'd argue the same thing for Knightfall, COIE, NTT/Judas Contract, A Death in the Family, Giffen/DeMatteis JLI, the Satellite JLA era, etc.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 09-20-2019 at 08:34 AM.

  14. #44
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I'd argue that most of DC's great stories rely on some form of continuity. That's just how a shared universe works. Aside from that though, I'd be on board with a more skeletal, broad strokes approach that allows the reader to fill in the gaps. However, there still needs to be agreement on the BIG stories, the benchmarks of DC mythology. The Death of Superman saga, I'd argue, is a one of the big stories in that it helped to define Superman throughout the rest of the 90s and into the 2000s. That one needs to be in continuity as originally told. I'd argue the same thing for Knightfall, COIE, NTT/Judas Contract, A Death in the Family, Giffen/DeMatteis JLI, the Satellite JLA era, etc.
    Not really, some stories might reference other great stories, but the only story I can think of that even remotely relies on previous stories is The Long Halloween continuing from Year One (technically Dark Victory too, but that's kind of cheating as a direct sequel to Long Halloween). Most other classic stories don't rely on continuity to work. They might not break continuity, but that's not the same thing as relying on continuity at all. So, no, that doesn't really seem to be how continuity works. It's less "stories rely on continuity" and more "stories mostly don't break continuity". Rarely does a truly worthwhile story rely on continuity. Not saying it doesn't happen, not saying it can't, just that most stories could be taken without the surrounding continuity and work just fine as is.

    As for agreement on the big stories, that doesn't work in say the argument of a post-Crisis styled "hard" reboot (never mind a truly hard back to basics reboot). And even if you don't reboot, there still isn't a need for it to be "as originally told". It could still happen, but not 100% like it did way back one. As a perfect example, you mentioned The Death of Superman - the recent movie adapted the story line, but it was not "as originally told", it was in a completely new and different continuity, the JL was the iconic Leaguers vs the team from that era of the 90s, Superman wore a different suit, said different lines, it wasn't the same story, and yet it still works. And not only does it still work for that different continuity, but you could insert it into the comic book continuity and it wouldn't change much if anything.

    Of course Reign of the Supermen is a different matter, but that was a film that tried to pack too much in too short a run time. Anyways, point is even with the stories in continuity, every little detail as originally told doesn't matter, just the broad strokes. What costume was being worn then, who all was on the League in that exact moment of time, it doesn't matter. Just that Superman died killing Doomsday and saving Metropolis in the process. And he eventually (Superman) got better.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Not really, some stories might reference other great stories, but the only story I can think of that even remotely relies on previous stories is The Long Halloween continuing from Year One (technically Dark Victory too, but that's kind of cheating as a direct sequel to Long Halloween). Most other classic stories don't rely on continuity to work.
    Blackest Night and Brightest Day relied on countless stories in order to explain all of the resurrected heroes. After all, you can't resurrect someone unless they've died already.

    Final Crisis depended on the Death of the New Gods and Infinite Crisis. Again, the New Gods couldn't possess people unless they'd died and of course they were able to take over the ruins of Blüdhaven because it had been destroyed in Infinite Crisis

    Infinite Crisis, in turn, relied on COIE.

    The Return of Barry Allen (and really the whole of Wally's time as the Flash) depended on COIE and Barry's death.

    There are many, many other examples, but I digress. The idea that the stories of the DCU don't rely on continuity just doesn't line up with the facts.

    As a perfect example, you mentioned The Death of Superman - the recent movie adapted the storyline, but it was not "as originally told", it was in a completely new and different continuity, the JL was the iconic Leaguers vs the team from that era of the 90s, Superman wore a different suit, said different lines, it wasn't the same story, and yet it still works. And not only does it still work for that different continuity, but you could insert it into the comic book continuity and it wouldn't change much if anything.

    Of course, the Reign of the Supermen is a different matter, but that was a film that tried to pack too much in too short run time. Anyways, the point is even with the stories in continuity, every little detail as originally told doesn't matter, just the broad strokes. What costume was being worn then, who all was on the League in that exact moment of time, it doesn't matter. Just that Superman died killing Doomsday and saving Metropolis in the process. And he eventually (Superman) got better.
    Not really. The Death of Superman animated movie was completely divorced in its own universe, separate from the comics universe, which was still populated with stories that depended on the events of that story to even function. For example, you couldn't have the animated version of Death of Superman in the main comics universe because then you'd have to explain how Hal Jordan became Parallax without Hank Henshaw and Mongul destroying Coast City as they did in the original comic. Hal Jordan as Parallax is what led to Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern, and then Final Night, and then the events of Green Lantern: Rebirth and the Geoff Johns GL run.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 09-20-2019 at 01:18 PM.

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