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  1. #316

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    It makes absolutely no sense that telepathy would produce a fiery raptor effect, not to mention she reffers to herself and Phoenix as the same entity in that very scan. Whatever editor at the time might have said is irrelevant, Claremont said what he said.

  2. #317
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    She was Phoenix in name only. Go read UXM 387

  3. #318
    Incredible Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    It makes absolutely no sense that telepathy would produce a fiery raptor effect, not to mention she reffers to herself and Phoenix as the same entity in that very scan. Whatever editor at the time might have said is irrelevant, Claremont said what he said.
    If you recall during the Revolution era Psylocke somehow gained Jean's telekinetic abilities, and Jean gained Psylocke's psychic affinity for shadows and perhaps added Betsy's tp to her own. Betsy could create physical manifestation of her psychic powers with a knife and/or swords. Jean's tp displayed as a phoenix raptor.

    Havok83 is correct that Claremont intended the Phoenix in this respect to be Jean's natural psi-powers (of course that is how he viewed the Phoenix in his original story anyhow). Claremont didn't write about a force but a powerful psionic.

    I think though one could argue that based on what Morrison wrote perhaps it could be viewed that Jean was channeling the Phoenix since Seagle's run. Heck, in Phoenix Resurrection you can almost infer that Jean was channeling the Phoenix ever since Uncanny 101 (when the Phoenix suggests it and Jean hide together it shows Jean as her X-factor version).

    All this said, Claremont intended on Jean just having her telepathy in X-men Revolution and apart of that was her telepathy manifesting as a phoenix raptor. In fact in one of the issues Storm says she has witnessed Jean's psychic powers manifest as phoenix many times (this is the issue where Jean creates a powerful illusion with her telepathy and uses Cable's tk to further change Beast, Cable, and herself).

  4. #319
    Spectacular Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    It makes absolutely no sense that telepathy would produce a fiery raptor effect, not to mention she reffers to herself and Phoenix as the same entity in that very scan. Whatever editor at the time might have said is irrelevant, Claremont said what he said.
    It's relevant even if you don't care. At the time, the X-Books were heavily editorially controlled. So if and editor said "no Phoenix Force", believe there wasn't any. As a Jean Grey fan, I remember that this very image was part of a preview we had online. Jean Fans were very excited and during a Q&A with the editor, a fan asked if the Phoenix Force would return to Jean (based on the preview) and the editor answered that no phoenix force was involved this time. And that was the story we had : Jean had ZERO TK, and could manifest a fiery raptor as the sum and manifestation of her TP powers.
    It was her power signature, like the butterfly was Betsy signature when she was just a TP. Jean Grey was Phoenix in name, suit, and power signature. But there was no Phoenix Force.

    Now, a little question : are you a Jean fan? Did you read X-Men Revolution by CC?
    Last edited by franckd; 11-17-2019 at 01:49 AM.

  5. #320

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    It makes absolutely no sense that telepathy would produce a fiery raptor effect, not to mention she reffers to herself and Phoenix as the same entity in that very scan. Whatever editor at the time might have said is irrelevant, Claremont said what he said.

    She has been making a Phoenix raptor with TP or TK since at least the 80's just for a frame of reference.

  6. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    She has been making a Phoenix raptor with TP or TK since at least the 80's just for a frame of reference.
    Not from the beginning of XFactor to towards the end of the 90s. It was a plot point in the late 90s that her using Phoenix imagery again was a sign she was reconnecting with the force and there were gradually more and more hints until Revolution and then Morrisson. But she's never used the raptor while being completely Phoenix-less afaik. Which leads me to....

    Quote Originally Posted by franckd View Post
    It's relevant even if you don't care. At the time, the X-Books were heavily editorially controlled. So if and editor said "no Phoenix Force", believe there wasn't any. As a Jean Grey fan, I remember that this very image was part of a preview we had online. Jean Fans were very excited and during a Q&A with the editor, a fan asked if the Phoenix Force would return to Jean (based on the preview) and the editor answered that no phoenix force was involved this time. And that was the story we had : Jean had ZERO TK, and could manifest a fiery raptor as the sum and manifestation of her TP powers.
    It was her power signature, like the butterfly was Betsy signature when she was just a TP. Jean Grey was Phoenix in name, suit, and power signature. But there was no Phoenix Force.

    Now, a little question : are you a Jean fan? Did you read X-Men Revolution by CC?
    we will never have a definitive canon surrounding Jean's ties to the Phoenix before Marvel will never stick to one story. Phoenix and Jean were unseparable in the 80s, then Marvel distanced it from her after Inferno, came back to it around the end of OZT, from what you're saying backtracked during Revolution, before affirming Jean was definitely Phoenix and the two had been forever and would forever been tied during NXM, Endsong all the way to the premices of Messiah Complex and then changed their mind again. At this point it's up to each reader to interpret the story how they see fit which Im not interested in changing anyone's mind. But from the dialogue its very clear to me Jean is harboring the Phoenix Force here and knowing anything about Claremont he would very much discard what his editor thought about it and put on the page what he wants. It also consolidates HIS statement in interviews in which he declared to him the XMen story should end with Logan and Jean/Phoenix as the last two beings in the universe. Interviews are not canon, neither his nor the editor. What is canon is Cable asking "isnt this the kind of thing Phoenix could do" implying Phoenixless Jean couldnt, which supports previous continuity and Jean replying "and who do you think I am" which implies there is no Phoenixless Jean and the two are one and the same.

    And yes I love Revolution and Jean is my second favorite XMan.

  7. #322
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    I wish they'd just say the cocoon in Jamaica Bay was a Phoenix egg. I'm not sure they have.

    My take was always that Jean is Phoenix and vice versa. I'm not averse to it having other hosts but AFAIC it was her in the Dark Phoenix Saga. I remember Morrison hinting at it, but not fully re-canonizing it. But I also haven't read Here Comes Tomorrow in many years.

    I do think the costume/raptor in Revolution were always very loaded hints.

  8. #323
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I wish they'd just say the cocoon in Jamaica Bay was a Phoenix egg. I'm not sure they have.

    My take was always that Jean is Phoenix and vice versa. I'm not averse to it having other hosts but AFAIC it was her in the Dark Phoenix Saga. I remember Morrison hinting at it, but not fully re-canonizing it. But I also haven't read Here Comes Tomorrow in many years.

    I do think the costume/raptor in Revolution were always very loaded hints.
    Yeah the whole coccoon thing it's still canon they even referenced it on History of Marvel Universe

  9. #324
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    This thread just makes me want to buckle down and finally read Revolution.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    This thread just makes me want to buckle down and finally read Revolution.
    Revolution and Counter-X are both full of wild, unsanitary and often half-baked messy ideas which never reach fruition. A lot of it is well intentioned but much does not work. They’re also the most creative and colorful the X-books would be in the 21st century outside of Morrison, until House of X. I have a lot of love for that crazy misbegotten period. (And I have almost zero for X-Treme X-Men.)

    I had a miniseries idea dealing with Revolution once, a mystery spanning two time periods where most of the players involved from back then (like Jean, who was still dead at the time) would be off the board and contemporary X-characters would have to investigate a hidden threat from that forgotten period. C’est la vie.
    Last edited by powerpax; 11-18-2019 at 07:23 PM.

  11. #326
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    This thread just makes me want to buckle down and finally read Revolution.
    It was pretty bad. Dont do it to yourself

  12. #327
    Spectacular Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Not from the beginning of XFactor to towards the end of the 90s. It was a plot point in the late 90s that her using Phoenix imagery again was a sign she was reconnecting with the force and there were gradually more and more hints until Revolution and then Morrisson. But she's never used the raptor while being completely Phoenix-less afaik. Which leads me to....
    Nothing pointed she was reconnecting with the force, in the 90's. Segale & Kelly had Jean reclaiming the Phoenix identity, suit and powers as a part of her identity. She said she wanted to explore her full potential. It got axed before we saw the end of it. But nothing proves she wasn't or was reconnecting with the force. As it was written, it was all about her own potential. As it was always intended during CC's and Cockrum. Then Jean want Dark, mass killing an alien civilization, and they came with the idea, just before she died, that the Phoenix was an other identity.


    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    we will never have a definitive canon surrounding Jean's ties to the Phoenix before Marvel will never stick to one story. Phoenix and Jean were unseparable in the 80s, then Marvel distanced it from her after Inferno, came back to it around the end of OZT, from what you're saying backtracked during Revolution, before affirming Jean was definitely Phoenix and the two had been forever and would forever been tied during NXM, Endsong all the way to the premices of Messiah Complex and then changed their mind again. At this point it's up to each reader to interpret the story how they see fit which Im not interested in changing anyone's mind. But from the dialogue its very clear to me Jean is harboring the Phoenix Force here and knowing anything about Claremont he would very much discard what his editor thought about it and put on the page what he wants. It also consolidates HIS statement in interviews in which he declared to him the XMen story should end with Logan and Jean/Phoenix as the last two beings in the universe. Interviews are not canon, neither his nor the editor.

    And yes I love Revolution and Jean is my second favorite XMan.
    We will never have definitive canon about Jean/Phoenix, because too many writers wanted to write their phoenix saga. Contradicting each others. But if we take it run by run, CC's revolution Jean was never about tapping in the force. Glad that you liked Revolution. I disliked it very much. It was dreadful to read, and nothing worked much, except CC's Jean & Cable relation, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    What is canon is Cable asking "isnt this the kind of thing Phoenix could do" implying Phoenixless Jean couldnt, which supports previous continuity and Jean replying "and who do you think I am" which implies there is no Phoenixless Jean and the two are one and the same.
    We also can read it as : "My codename is Phoenix, and my own powers can create raptors". It's hers, as her own potential. As CC originally intended to write her. Saying that she's tapping in the force is your interpretation. And your interpretation contradicts something Jean says later during the run : the time CC's Revolution mentioned the force, was through Jean talking about her Phoenix years like it was something she had nothing to do about :"I know the story, I read the files" she said. During this run, it was made clear that her pervious incarnation wasn't her (not that I like it, but it's the way it was written) and that now she had nothing to do with the force. Implying the two are not one the same.

    Again, I belong to the "Jean was always Phoenix and Phoenix was always Jean camp". So it's not about what I like or not. It's about facts. CC's revolution wasn't written like she was tapping in the force.
    Last edited by franckd; 11-19-2019 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Correcting ("face" instead of "force")

  13. #328
    Mighty Member Jbenito's Avatar
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    Land variant.

    I'm getting Mikhail vibes.
    For the children, the wardrobe, and which one of these is a mimosa tree? Krakoa forever!

  14. #329
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Oh goodie, the beard is back.

    Too bad it's not nearly as attractive.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  15. #330
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    No, just no to that entire look

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