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  1. #136
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I meant consequential in the sense of having an impact on the characters in the current 616 Universe, rather than continuing to be viable for new stories set in the present.
    Well Ultimate Universe was impactful to Peter since it brought him in contact with Miles Morales who eventually crossed over into 616. And then you have The Maker who's now become a lasting villain and a big player in Absolute Carnage (and eventually set to be the final villain in Cates' Venom run).

  2. #137
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Interesting debate between Revolutionary_Jack and Ursalink, by the way, though I would agree that while Peter Parker and Bruce Banner have been persecuted as individuals based on the suspicions and fears of influential figures in media and/or with authority, much like the X-Men have, their experiences are somewhat different from an entire subset of people being targeted for persecution and outright elimination based not on anything they've actually done, but out of fear and hatred of who or what they are. How? More simply put, an individual being targeted by authorities and media can be targeted for good or at least understandable reasons, but there is no good reason to target an entire group of people for wholesale elimination over the acts of a relative few, or for the entire power structure governing the society that group inhabits to be geared towards destroying said group. Jameson and Ross can oppose Spider-Man and the Hulk because they're genuinely afraid of the damage those two can cause without actually knowing their intentions and still be somewhat sympathetic and reasonable, but there is no really sympathetic reason to hate an entire group of people to the point of trying to commit genocide against them based on what some of them did or didn't do. That's the major distinction.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Interesting debate between Revolutionary_Jack and Ursalink, by the way, though I would agree that while Peter Parker and Bruce Banner have been persecuted as individuals based on the suspicions and fears of influential figures in media and/or with authority, much like the X-Men have, their experiences are somewhat different from an entire subset of people being targeted for persecution and outright elimination based not on anything they've actually done, but out of fear and hatred of who or what they are. How? More simply put, an individual being targeted by authorities and media can be targeted for good or at least understandable reasons, but there is no good reason to target an entire group of people for wholesale elimination over the acts of a relative few, or for the entire power structure governing the society that group inhabits to be geared towards destroying said group. Jameson and Ross can oppose Spider-Man and the Hulk because they're genuinely afraid of the damage those two can cause without actually knowing their intentions and still be somewhat sympathetic and reasonable, but there is no really sympathetic reason to hate an entire group of people to the point of trying to commit genocide against them based on what some of them did or didn't do. That's the major distinction.
    Magneto's first terrorism attack initiated the public hate and fear against mutants, and instead of making sure he and other mutant criminals paid for the lifes they ruined, the X-Men received them into their ranks. X-Men could have reached peace with humanity by showing there are good and bad mutants, but by allowing the bad ones into their ranks, they only proved to humanity that ALL mutants are the same; monsters that believe themselves gods. So it's logical now most people want all mutants exterminated, especially when it was revealed that they recruit themselves into secret armies like the Brotherhood or the X-Men.

    Also, how about the Inhumans? Inhumans are also quite feared and prosecuted by regular humans. Although, I have to admit, not as much as Mutants. In fact, Inhumans could be considered Mutants' "natural enemies", as the Terrigen Mists give their powers to the Inhumans, but it's poison to the Mutants.

  4. #139
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Magneto's first terrorism attack initiated the public hate and fear against mutants, and instead of making sure he and other mutant criminals paid for the lifes they ruined, the X-Men received them into their ranks.
    Huh...that's a bizarre view of facts, totally fabricated, utterly ignorant of continuity and spitting on context.

    -- Mutants were hated and feared well before Magneto arrived. The X-Men fought and opposed Magneto's actions and they still got persecuted and attacked by the government.
    --Sentinels were deployed to target all mutants and not just Magneto (against whom sentinels being made of metal would be dead useless).
    -- The X-men only received Magneto into their ranks after
    A) He had de-aged and suffered healing for his mental trauma,
    B) He submitted to a trial where he was exonerated after mutant terrorists tried to kill him and he saved everyone including the opposing prosecutor's life.
    -- And then of course Magneto broke bad and went into Fatal Attractions in which Professor X shut Erik down with extreme prejudice after he ripped off the adamantium from Logan. Then Magneto was decommissioned until he resurfaced and took over Genosha and extorted independence from UN (which the X-Men opposed).
    -- The X-Men after that only allied with Magneto in the long period between House of M and Decimation to HoX-PoX. During that time, Magneto did stuff like save San Francisco from an earthquake (saving humans and mutants) and he's been a hero/anti-hero for a decade targeting evil humans and supervillains, and generally being on the straight-and-narrow.

    So I have to say your view of 616 X-Men is totally off.

    X-Men could have reached peace with humanity by showing there are good and bad mutants,
    They DID that, multiple times. They didn't even get a lousy T-Shirt, and instead they got genocide-robots.

    ...but by allowing the bad ones into their ranks, they only proved to humanity that ALL mutants are the same; monsters that believe themselves gods.
    Well some of these bad mutants (like Magneto) do a lot more for mutantkind than non-mutant superheroes like Captain America do (which Logan pointed out all the way back in Secret Wars 1984).

    So it's logical now most people want all mutants exterminated,
    It is NEVER logical to want any group of people exterminated.

    Also, how about the Inhumans?
    A caste-based society that oppresses Alpha-Primitives and keep them as slaves with weird medieval justification as well as a patriarchal society built on polygamy...has nothing to do with the mutants and X-Men.

    In fact, Inhumans could be considered Mutants' "natural enemies", as the Terrigen Mists give their powers to the Inhumans, but it's poison to the Mutants.
    Has the government of USA built sentinels to murder every Inhuman, including Kamala Khan and deprived them of rights just for existing?

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Huh...that's a bizarre view of facts, totally fabricated, utterly ignorant of continuity and spitting on context.

    -- Mutants were hated and feared well before Magneto arrived. The X-Men fought and opposed Magneto's actions and they still got persecuted and attacked by the government.
    --Sentinels were deployed to target all mutants and not just Magneto (against whom sentinels being made of metal would be dead useless).
    -- The X-men only received Magneto into their ranks after
    A) He had de-aged and suffered healing for his mental trauma,
    B) He submitted to a trial where he was exonerated after mutant terrorists tried to kill him and he saved everyone including the opposing prosecutor's life.
    -- And then of course Magneto broke bad and went into Fatal Attractions in which Professor X shut Erik down with extreme prejudice after he ripped off the adamantium from Logan. Then Magneto was decommissioned until he resurfaced and took over Genosha and extorted independence from UN (which the X-Men opposed).
    -- The X-Men after that only allied with Magneto in the long period between House of M and Decimation to HoX-PoX. During that time, Magneto did stuff like save San Francisco from an earthquake (saving humans and mutants) and he's been a hero/anti-hero for a decade targeting evil humans and supervillains, and generally being on the straight-and-narrow.

    So I have to say your view of 616 X-Men is totally off.



    They DID that, multiple times. They didn't even get a lousy T-Shirt, and instead they got genocide-robots.



    Well some of these bad mutants (like Magneto) do a lot more for mutantkind than non-mutant superheroes like Captain America do (which Logan pointed out all the way back in Secret Wars 1984).



    It is NEVER logical to want any group of people exterminated.



    A caste-based society that oppresses Alpha-Primitives and keep them as slaves with weird medieval justification as well as a patriarchal society built on polygamy...has nothing to do with the mutants and X-Men.



    Has the government of USA built sentinels to murder every Inhuman, including Kamala Khan and deprived them of rights just for existing?
    Other superheroes could help mutants if they didn't have to deal with other problems like Hydra, AIM, Thanos and other catastrophical threats. With their telepath's powers, Mutants could help to put an end to Hydra and other problems in the world; yet they do it to violate the intimidity of regular people's thoughs.

    Also, I'm not sure if it was done by Emma Frost or not, but I do believe there were built Sentinels expecifically designed to kill Inhumans.

    And how about Red Skull's S-Men? Many of them were just regular people until Mutant criminals like Magneto ruined their lives. There's always a reason for humans to hate mutants:

    + Mzee was born in a village in Ethiopia where he lived with his family until the day they were killed by a group of Magneto's henchmen while he hid in an oil drum.
    + Graydon Creed was the human son of two mutants (Sabretooth and Mystique), who abandoned him and I believe Sabretooth even beated him as a child.
    + Lydia Nance grew up in a poor household in Long Island, and was physically abused by her mutant father.
    + Leper Queen hated mutants because her mutant daughter accidentally burned her house and family. If mutant babies can cause such a disaster when they can't control their powers, you are going to blame regular humans from being scared of that?

  6. #141
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Other superheroes could help mutants if they didn't have to deal with other problems like Hydra, AIM, Thanos and other catastrophical threats.
    X-Men have been in the ranks of Avengers fighting these threats, they fought Thanos when he assembled the Infinity Gauntlet and Phoenix famously saved the universe when that Shi'Ar dude tried to grab the M'Krann crystal. Likewise it was X-Men who healed Carol Danvers after the Avengers supported Carol being taken away in a relationship with her time-travelling rapist.

    The X-Men and mutantkind have done far more for the Avengers and the Marvel Universe than vice-versa.

    And how about Red Skull's S-Men?
    If they are pre-fixed with Red Skull and an apostrophe...I don't care one whit how they are about.

    Many of them were just regular people until Mutant criminals like Magneto ruined their lives.
    Obviously a few mutants, like Magneto and Mystique among others, have blood on their hands. But it's quite a leap from that to...this justifies genocide, or the idea that these individuals think Red Skull is the guy who can deliver justice.

  7. #142
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Other superheroes could help mutants if they didn't have to deal with other problems like Hydra, AIM, Thanos and other catastrophical threats. With their telepath's powers, Mutants could help to put an end to Hydra and other problems in the world; yet they do it to violate the intimidity of regular people's thoughs.

    Also, I'm not sure if it was done by Emma Frost or not, but I do believe there were built Sentinels expecifically designed to kill Inhumans.

    And how about Red Skull's S-Men? Many of them were just regular people until Mutant criminals like Magneto ruined their lives. There's always a reason for humans to hate mutants:

    + Mzee was born in a village in Ethiopia where he lived with his family until the day they were killed by a group of Magneto's henchmen while he hid in an oil drum.
    + Graydon Creed was the human son of two mutants (Sabretooth and Mystique), who abandoned him and I believe Sabretooth even beated him as a child.
    + Lydia Nance grew up in a poor household in Long Island, and was physically abused by her mutant father.
    + Leper Queen hated mutants because her mutant daughter accidentally burned her house and family. If mutant babies can cause such a disaster when they can't control their powers, you are going to blame regular humans from being scared of that?
    Creed never beat Graydon in the comics. That was crap the TAS cartoon did. In the comics, Sabretooth didn't know he had a son until Mystique finally told him when Graydon was trying to kill them both. Sabretooth spared Graydon when he had the chance to kill him, saved him from Mystique, supported him becoming president, and even sacrificed himself to bring Graydon back from Hell. Though that last one may be non-canon now given the series. lol

    But in any case, Creed & Graydon hardly interacted but Sabretooth was fond of him when he saw how ruthless he was.

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