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  1. #46
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    I hope there isn’t an impact. I honestly don’t want some terrible mutant supremacy status quo in all my Marvel books for the next two years.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    No more than Captain America recruiting Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch as his first set of new Avengers when they were only known as members of Magneto's Brotherhood. Or for a more recent example, recruiting Red Hulk as an Avenger after he took part in a coup against the United States of America, which was especially galling because his alter ego was a US general sworn to defend the country at all costs and turned his back on that for power to rival, if not surpass, the Hulk. Or even more recently, Thor being accepted back as an Avenger after he joined HYDRA-Cap of his own will in Secret Empire without being brainwashed, reprogrammed, or possessed like Vision and Scarlet Witch were. Going back a little further, anyone looking at Iron Man as any sort of credible hero after what he pulled throughout the original Civil War, the stain of which was so bad he had to be rebooted with a pre-Extremis backup copy of his brain, and even then, he admitted he would do most of the same things he did with (or despite) the benefit of hindsight. Then, going all the way back to the beginning, the Hulk was a force for destruction who had surely cost a lot of innocent lives himself, to the point that his fellow heroes decided they were better off with him off the planet; depending on how you look at what's going on in Immortal Hulk, he may well be the biggest threat to the world outside the united mutant nation of Krakoa, and he was still accepted as an Avenger at various points in their history.

    I could go on, but there are plenty of cases in canon where the Avengers have been wretched hypocrites who abandoned the principles they were supposed to stand by and uphold in the name of whatever they thought was either the greater good or just plain expediency. As for the innocents killed by the various mutant villains that Xavier and the X-Men have accepted into their fold, bear in mind that the X-Men were repeatedly faced with the mass murder of innocent mutants that was in many cases sanctioned or condoned by human authorities, while everyone else, the likes of the Avengers included, turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to genocide being openly espoused, if not actively and publicly carried out, by those same authorities. At least Magneto went on trial for his crimes back in Chris Claremont's X-Men run, which is more than I've ever seen for the likes of William Stryker, Bolivar Trask, and even Scarlet Witch; let's not forget that her actions in House of M led to the deaths of nearly one million mutants, and Trask created the Sentinels in the first place, which were later used for the genocide of Genosha, extinguishing sixteen million mutant lives. None of them ever went on trial or faced lawful punishment for what they did, and Scarlet Witch was even protected by the Avengers and allowed to become one of them again.

    That is hypocrisy.
    + Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver DID commited crimes, but they were two unlucky guys who spent their lifes manipulated by everyone (Magneto, the High Evolutionary...); and they weren't even mutants. Cap only gave them a chance.
    + I can't say anything about the Red Hulk, as General Ross was always an imbecile to me. But I guess when you are facing an alien invasion or another "end of the world", a Hulk's might is really needed. And if Bruce Banner isn't available, you either recruit She-Hulk, A-Bomb or any other close enough. (At least they never tried to recruit Abomination).
    + Thor was in her weakest in Secret Empire, and Hydra Cap manipulated everyone as he pleased. Thor made a mistake, but more than recovering his hammer, he wanted to free Jane/Thor from wherever Hydra Cap sent her.
    + I lost any respect for Iron Man long ago because of his insufferable ego. And he's also the one who started the second Civil War, only in the other side. He has such a ego like other members of the Iluminati, like Charles Xavier himself.
    + The people apparently can't simply understand the concept that Hulk only wants to be left alone. He's a Gamma Bomb, and he's very dangerous, that's right; but if you don't tick that bomb, he won't explode. Many destructions caused by Hulk were because of villains' manipulations, or because Ross and others persecutions. Ross is way more cynical than Hulk himself.

    + I can't say anything about the errors caused by the Avengers.
    + Those killings of innocent mutants would have been avoided if the X-Men would have put an end or a stop to the guilty mutants. Everytime they left Magneto, Mystique, Mr Sinister or any other criminal mutant to run free and cause destruction, they gave reasons to goverments and hating groups to exterminate innocent mutants before they turn as dangerous as the ones who caused these disasters. I know this sounds very similar to what superheroes do with supervillains usually; but the difference is that they are usually created by accidents, while the mutants are already born with a potential genetic ticking bomb waiting to explode.
    + Bolivar Trask created the Sentinels so humanity could have a defense against the potential destructive power of mutants. You can't blame him for that. About Bolivar Trask, we was shot by a regular policeman when he tried to kill Kitty Pryde on TV. And the Scarlet Witch was manipulated by Quicksilver and Magneto to create the "House of M's reality". Scarlet Witch simply had his payback on Magneto fo rthat. An besides, she didn't kill any mutant, she only removed their powers and turned them into humans. That's not the same as "killing".

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Personally, I don't care at all. Whatever is going to happen with the X-Men at the end of HOX/POX, it will definitely won't last. Xavier has crossed too many lines for what he has done, and the Marvel Universe will make him pay dearly for it.
    What lines has Xavier crossed in HoX/PoX and before that is so egregious?

    Something will happen, surely through 2020, that will cause the Mutants to be back to where they always are: Mostly exterminated and relentlessly chased by those who hate them.
    Unlikely. Because MCU have the rights to the characters again. Quesada notoriously declared a moratorium on expanding the X-Men universe in the wake of Decimation (https://icv2.com/articles/comics/vie...o-more-mutants) driven largely by the rights issues. If Hickman's run sells well, and it looks like he's doing so, and if the DoX launch works (which given the crew Hickman assembled looks like it should), then the X-Men will be there to stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Mutants alienated themselves using humanity's fear as excuse. After so many innocents died at the hands of Magneto, Mystique, Apocalypse and others, the X-Men just welcome them to their ranks as nothing. If they wanted to be accepted by humanity, they should have put an end to them; but instead, they recruited them. That's hipocresy!
    Humanity has invented machines to genocide mutantkind, and have done so multiple times, repeatedly.

    "You've forgotten that machines have no souls. And humanity lost theirs a long time ago."

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    What lines has Xavier crossed in HoX/PoX and before that is so egregious?


    Humanity has invented machines to genocide mutantkind, and have done so multiple times, repeatedly.

    "You've forgotten that machines have no souls. And humanity lost theirs a long time ago."
    Well, about the lines crossed by Xavier, he tried to impose a mutant nation, just like Magneto did. In the last issue, he dared to play God resurrecting dead mutants, as if they have any right to play with Death that way. (Thanos would surely kills the mutants for that). And in Jerusalen, Xavier and Magneto dared to say mutants were humanity's new Gods.

    Humanity created machines to protect themselves from the destructive power of the Mutants. Magneto attacks several places and kills innocent people, humanity need a way to defend against it. Clearly, reached a limit, humanity have to take the offensive here. "Humanity lost their souls a long time ago"; well, it seems they even forget that, before they mutant powers activate, they all were humans too.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Well, about the lines crossed by Xavier, he tried to impose a mutant nation, just like Magneto did.
    Xavier built a mutant nation out of consent with the governed, with offers of trade and peaceful methods. Magneto extorted UN into giving him Genosha by threatening them with terrorism.

    If you can't see the difference then I don't know.

    In the last issue, he dared to play God resurrecting dead mutants, as if they have any right to play with Death that way.
    Humanity has played god ever since they put the Soldier Serum into Steve Rogers (and as per retcons people before Steve such as Isaiah Bradley, and also others).

    In this case, Xavier rescued the lives of X-Men who shut down a genocide machine built by every secret society including Nazi groups like HYDRA

    And in Jerusalen, Xavier and Magneto dared to say mutants were humanity's new Gods.
    Well it was Magneto who said that. That's more modest than some stuff that real diplomats have done.

    Humanity created machines to protect themselves from the destructive power of the Mutants.
    They built Sentinel robots that have a directive to genocide and kill anyone with an X-Gene...including children, and sent those robots pre-emptively. They were building on Mother Mold well before Krakoa showed up.

  6. #51
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    I know we don't giant genocidal robots here, but at the same time, well, this book makes a fine argument for why some people might think they're a goodish idea.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I know we don't giant genocidal robots here, but at the same time, well, this book makes a fine argument for why some people might think they're a goodish idea.
    You do realize that those robots were invented and in production before Krakoa and its unveiling, right? That was laid out clearly. Whatever your ambivalent feelings about Xavier's project and it's intentionally ambivalent very much so...that wasn't a factor in Orchis creating Mother Mold.

    If the X-Men didn't form Krakoa and create a society, they wouldn't have been able to act in time and unplug Mother Mold.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Well it was Magneto who said that. That's more modest than some stuff that real diplomats have done.


    What diplomat has done anything less modest than calling themselves a god?

  9. #54
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    I swear some of the posts here could be copied and pasted into the mouth of an anti-mutant politician in the X-books lol

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Or even more recently, Thor being accepted back as an Avenger after he joined HYDRA-Cap of his own will in Secret Empire without being brainwashed, reprogrammed, or possessed like Vision and Scarlet Witch were.
    He was blackmailed. Jane had been captured. When Doctor Strange got her out, Odinson immediately switched back to the heroes side, the bad guys having lost their leverage over him.

  11. #56
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    He also had no idea what was going on and was still trusting who he thought was his best friend, who he also thought was still worthy of the hammer he couldn't lift himself, giving Stevil the perceived moral high ground.

  12. #57
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    He was blackmailed. Jane had been captured. When Doctor Strange got her out, Odinson immediately switched back to the heroes side, the bad guys having lost their leverage over him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    He also had no idea what was going on and was still trusting who he thought was his best friend, who he also thought was still worthy of the hammer he couldn't lift himself, giving Stevil the perceived moral high ground.
    I'll concede your points on Thor, but my overall point that the Avengers (and humanity at large) have no moral high ground to stand on and judge the X-Men, or mutants as a whole, for what they're doing still stands.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #58
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    He also had no idea what was going on and was still trusting who he thought was his best friend, who he also thought was still worthy of the hammer he couldn't lift himself, giving Stevil the perceived moral high ground.
    I'd like to think Thor has more common sense then that, though admittedly back then he wasn't written very smartly.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You do realize that those robots were invented and in production before Krakoa and its unveiling, right? That was laid out clearly. Whatever your ambivalent feelings about Xavier's project and it's intentionally ambivalent very much so...that wasn't a factor in Orchis creating Mother Mold.

    If the X-Men didn't form Krakoa and create a society, they wouldn't have been able to act in time and unplug Mother Mold.
    But that's the thing, the humans weren't entirely wrong about what mutants this time.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But that's the thing, the humans weren't entirely wrong about what mutants this time.
    What have the X-Men done so far in HoX/PoX that's so offensive.

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