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  1. #121
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    Now that HoX/PoX has ended, especially PoX #6, we have some indications on where Spider-Man fits in with how X-Men see things:

    spoilers:

    As per PoX#6, Post-Humanity sees superheroes and superhumans as precursors to mankind no longer depending on or needing to be tied to environment for the purpose of evolution.

    This idea essentially gives a concrete answer as to "Why are mutants hated but other Fantastic Four embraced?" The X-Men are natural products of evolution and so they are tied to the natural organic life of the planet and they see non-mutant superbeings as figures who mark the start of mankind no longer depending on the environment.

    So to them Spider-Man, Avengers, Fantastic Four are part of the problems and not the solution. So overall, this means that individually the X-Men might like Spider-Man but they would not really consider him "one of us".

    On the other hand, given that Spider-Man has had experiences and stuff dealing with where he fits in the scheme of things. His powers coming from the Spider-Totem and so on, it can be interesting if Peter considers himself or would want to consider being part of the road to Homo novissima. Considering how Xavier uses Cerebro to download personalities and consciences into new husks it could be interesting for Peter to compare that to Doctor Octopus' brainscan stuff and so on.

    And the transhumanist ideas that Hickman introduces is probably something you could explore Peter pondering from a scientific perspective. Especially since biology is one of Peter's fields.
    end of spoilers

  2. #122
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Now that HoX/PoX has ended, especially PoX #6, we have some indications on where Spider-Man fits in with how X-Men see things:

    spoilers:

    As per PoX#6, Post-Humanity sees superheroes and superhumans as precursors to mankind no longer depending on or needing to be tied to environment for the purpose of evolution.

    This idea essentially gives a concrete answer as to "Why are mutants hated but other Fantastic Four embraced?" The X-Men are natural products of evolution and so they are tied to the natural organic life of the planet and they see non-mutant superbeings as figures who mark the start of mankind no longer depending on the environment.

    So to them Spider-Man, Avengers, Fantastic Four are part of the problems and not the solution. So overall, this means that individually the X-Men might like Spider-Man but they would not really consider him "one of us".

    On the other hand, given that Spider-Man has had experiences and stuff dealing with where he fits in the scheme of things. His powers coming from the Spider-Totem and so on, it can be interesting if Peter considers himself or would want to consider being part of the road to Homo novissima. Considering how Xavier uses Cerebro to download personalities and consciences into new husks it could be interesting for Peter to compare that to Doctor Octopus' brainscan stuff and so on.

    And the transhumanist ideas that Hickman introduces is probably something you could explore Peter pondering from a scientific perspective. Especially since biology is one of Peter's fields.
    end of spoilers
    Pretty interesting. I myself suggested over in the POX #6 thread in the X-Books forum that nonmutant superheroes like Spider-Man could have their genetics mined by human scientists as a means for humanity to overcome the limits of "natural" evolution and even the playing field with mutants, as it were. Of course, another poster pointed out that non-X Marvel readers might object to their favorite characters being co-opted into an anti-mutant conspiracy and pitted against the X-Men, so there's that to consider.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #123
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    One thing House of X/ Powers of X did well was to introduce new timelines which were all consequential.

    This could happen with Spider-Man, especially since he's already had one retcon with One More Day.

    What if there were other timelines between One More Day and Brand New Day?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    One thing House of X/ Powers of X did well was to introduce new timelines which were all consequential.
    All previous lives of a single character whose current existence is 616 and the last. Each Alternate Timeline was annihilated and reset with the next incarnation. So I don't think HoX/PoX introduced alternate timelines as lasting viable things. Besides we've had that before with stuff like Age of Apocalypse, DOFP, Old Man Logan anyway.

    And in any case there's Spider-Verse, and Spider-Verse makes every single AU of Spider-Man, every adaptation, consequential to 616 Spider-Man, and left them as lasting viable timelines. So Spider-Girl still happened, as did RYV, as did the Newspaper Strip, and Noir and many others.

    This could happen with Spider-Man, especially since he's already had one retcon with One More Day.
    Marvel's quite insistent that the Spider-Man since BND is the same guy as before...and that in fact the continuity was altered rather than a new timeline created. I personally don't believe it or accept it of course. But that's Marvel's position.

  5. #125
    Fantastic Member Yvonmukluk's Avatar
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    I guess my theory that we might see the return of Madame Web is off the table, since it seems that whether or not she is a mutant (I've not seen anything to the contrary),
    spoilers:
    Moira seems to have a very strict no precognitives policy.
    end of spoilers

  6. #126
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvonmukluk View Post
    I guess my theory that we might see the return of Madame Web is off the table, since it seems that whether or not she is a mutant (I've not seen anything to the contrary),
    spoilers:
    Moira seems to have a very strict no precognitives policy.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Yeah, but based on Xavier and Magneto's words to Moira, they're already intending on breaking that promise.
    end of spoilers

  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvonmukluk View Post
    I guess my theory that we might see the return of Madame Web is off the table, since it seems that whether or not she is a mutant (I've not seen anything to the contrary),
    spoilers:
    Moira seems to have a very strict no precognitives policy.
    end of spoilers
    Official guidebooks said that she developed those powers, but they never said how, but they seemed to happen at old age, so she's probably not a mutant.

    Of course, they could've retconned that, specially since the comic themselves never explained what she is, but so far they didn't do anything.

  8. #128
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    They don't want pre cogs on the island and are indifferent to those who are residing outside of Krakoa.

  9. #129
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    The X-Men are really turning into hypocrites. They said no human can understand what being a mutant is like in the human world. Well, sorry to say it, but at least there are 2 of them who know that: Peter Parker and Bruce Banner. They had a story quite similar to the Mutants, being feared and hated for those who try to protect:

    + Mutants have Robert Kelly, Spider-Man has J Jonah Jameson and Hulk has General Ross.
    + Mutants have Sentinels, Spider-Man has Spider-Slayers and Hulk has Hulkbusters.

    I can't remember another example right now.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    The X-Men are really turning into hypocrites. They said no human can understand what being a mutant is like in the human world.
    I am sure that the X-Men would agree that marginalized groups such as people-of-color, and LGBT and other groups do in fact experience problems and struggles similar to theirs. At the same time they would also agree that their problems and issues are separate.

    I don't think a general expression that nobody understands their struggle is necessarily disproven because those who aren't mutants also experience something similar.

    Well, sorry to say it, but at least there are 2 of them who know that: Peter Parker and Bruce Banner.
    In the case of Peter Parker, his powers are entirely under control and he has to simply remove a mask to pass as human which is what he does. A lot of mutants don't have that choice (such as Cyclops who will always be marked with his ruby-quartz glasses/visor, Nightcrawler, and Angel among others) and X-Men at least since Morrison when they went public refuse to closet themselves. Banner depending on which version or which writer varies but again as Bruce Banner he passes as human.

    So Peter's story, given he passes as a human, isn't really all that similar to the issues of X-Men. Nor in fact are the X-Men's stories and issues have much to do with Spider-Man who is first and foremost a vigilante who fights crime. The X-Men don't really fight crime except tangentially (i.e. the people they fight tend to be criminals of some sort).

    + Mutants have Robert Kelly, Spider-Man has J Jonah Jameson and Hulk has General Ross.
    Not the same thing at all.

    Jameson persecutes Spider-Man because he sees him as a dangerous and reckless vigilante in a creepy costume who makes bad jokes and so on. General Ross persecutes the Hulk for self-claimed national security reasons and because he thinks the Hulk is dangerous. Now regardless of your views on the character and what they do in different runs...at their core both Jameson and Ross have reasonable claims. Spider-Man is a vigilante and so is outside the law...Hulk IS dangerous. It's just that both take it too far (Ross obviously more than Jameson).

    In the case of the X-Men, Robert Kelly and the Sentinels attack first and persecute them without them doing anything. They go after all mutants and not just mutant criminals, and they sponsor genocide robots to kill all mutants.

    That's on a bigger scale. I mean does Jameson decide to kill Aunt May, Mary Jane and all of Peter's friends and loved ones because he sees them as enablers? No he doesn't do that. That's what the X-Men go through.

  11. #131
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    The X-Men are really turning into hypocrites. They said no human can understand what being a mutant is like in the human world. Well, sorry to say it, but at least there are 2 of them who know that: Peter Parker and Bruce Banner. They had a story quite similar to the Mutants, being feared and hated for those who try to protect:

    + Mutants have Robert Kelly, Spider-Man has J Jonah Jameson and Hulk has General Ross.
    + Mutants have Sentinels, Spider-Man has Spider-Slayers and Hulk has Hulkbusters.

    I can't remember another example right now.
    I feel like robots to kill one guy is different from government created genocide machines.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I feel like robots to kill one guy is different from government created genocide machines.
    Spider-Slayers and Hulkbusters started with just one objective, but they eventually expanded their targets. Spider-Slayers were used against the other Spider-Characters, as well as those close to Spider-Man AND Jameson. And the Hulkbusters were later designed to destroy all Gamma Mutates. And Hulkbusters are also created by the Goverment.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Spider-Slayers and Hulkbusters started with just one objective, but they eventually expanded their targets. Spider-Slayers were used against the other Spider-Characters, as well as those close to Spider-Man AND Jameson. And the Hulkbusters were later designed to destroy all Gamma Mutates. And Hulkbusters are also created by the Goverment.
    The only force that targets all spiderpeople is morlun and the Inheritors and that’s more hunter chasing prey than persecution

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only force that targets all spiderpeople is morlun and the Inheritors and that’s more hunter chasing prey than persecution
    Really? That's funny. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe Norman Osborn (the local version) also started to persecute all spiders. Mainly because, since he has a "Goblin Army", he want to crash "Spider Army"; even when Spidey has no such thing.

  15. #135
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    All previous lives of a single character whose current existence is 616 and the last. Each Alternate Timeline was annihilated and reset with the next incarnation. So I don't think HoX/PoX introduced alternate timelines as lasting viable things. Besides we've had that before with stuff like Age of Apocalypse, DOFP, Old Man Logan anyway.

    And in any case there's Spider-Verse, and Spider-Verse makes every single AU of Spider-Man, every adaptation, consequential to 616 Spider-Man, and left them as lasting viable timelines. So Spider-Girl still happened, as did RYV, as did the Newspaper Strip, and Noir and many others.



    Marvel's quite insistent that the Spider-Man since BND is the same guy as before...and that in fact the continuity was altered rather than a new timeline created. I personally don't believe it or accept it of course. But that's Marvel's position.
    I meant consequential in the sense of having an impact on the characters in the current 616 Universe, rather than continuing to be viable for new stories set in the present.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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