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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    What have the X-Men done so far in HoX/PoX that's so offensive.
    Well, siding with Apocalypse and Sinister? Like, how is that not a bad idea? Especially Sinister! I mean, Apocalypse at least has some moral code, while Sinister implants bombs into the brains of children.

    This isn't even getting into the ethical issues of making the island a place only for mutants who have the X-gene and the whole weird cloning thing.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Well, siding with Apocalypse and Sinister?
    How is that different from Tony Stark empowering villains in his time as head of SHIELD, or the US Government empowering psychos like Thunderbolt Ross and Fortean?

    This isn't even getting into the ethical issues of making the island a place only for mutants who have the X-gene and the whole weird cloning thing.
    Some of the stuff with Krakoa in HoX/PoX is intentionally ambivalent and obviously Hickman will deal with that in due course. But there's a difference between ambivalence and saying that humanity is right and/or justified to invent genocide robots...

  3. #63
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    Dan Slott will allege robotic discrimination if he read your post.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I'll concede your points on Thor, but my overall point that the Avengers (and humanity at large) have no moral high ground to stand on and judge the X-Men, or mutants as a whole, for what they're doing still stands.
    X-Men have no Stingray. Avengers can call Stingray. Avengers win. Avengers me trust. No Stringray, me no trust.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How is that different from Tony Stark empowering villains in his time as head of SHIELD, or the US Government empowering psychos like Thunderbolt Ross and Fortean?
    The former was criticized both in and out of universe as a bad thing. The latter is unambiguously shown as wrong.

    Not fan of Tony has defended him empowering villains and Ross and Fortean are treated as villains.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-21-2019 at 12:02 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The former was criticized both in and out of universe as a bad thing. The latter is unambiguously shown as wrong.

    Not fan of Tony has defended him empowering villains and Ross and Fortean are treated as villains.
    Exactly! It wasn't treated as a good thing.

    It was treated as Tony acting recklessly.

    And honestly, Sinister and a lot of the other villains who came are in many ways worse. Sinister has put bombs in the heads of children, melted people, and just overall has absolutely no redeeming qualities.

    The idea of the X-Men siding with him is ridiculous, but it's even more ridiculous that X-Men fans think it's supposed to be a good idea.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Exactly! It wasn't treated as a good thing.
    Did Tony creating that justify the creation of robots dedicated to killing all humans?

    Because that's what you are saying. You are saying that the X-Men creating Krakoa and a community/society for all mutants complete with amnesty justifies humans creating genocide robots.

    It was treated as Tony acting recklessly.
    So did that justify genocide against the human race.

  8. #68
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But that's the thing, the humans weren't entirely wrong about what mutants this time.
    Humans: "We hate and fear you, so we're gonna kill you with big robots."

    Mutants: "Please don't. Let's live in peace. We'll even round up evil mutants as an offering."

    Humans: "Nah, we're gonna kill you."

    Mutants: "Fine, we're going to defend ourselves and build our own culture on our land. Recognize what we are capable of."

    Humans: "See! We were right all along to want to kill you."

    Mutants: *Proceed to protect themselves better than ever*

    Humans: "Look how horrible and evil they are! Kill them!"

    -Pav, who is a little surprised at some of the responses to House of X...
    2019 Marvel Monthly Buys: Superior Spider-Man Runaways Absolute Carnage: Lethal Protectors Silver Surfer: Black Death's Head House of X Powers of X Contagion

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  9. #69
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Humans: "We hate and fear you, so we're gonna kill you with big robots."

    Mutants: "Please don't. Let's live in peace. We'll even round up evil mutants as an offering."

    Humans: "Nah, we're gonna kill you."

    Mutants: "Fine, we're going to defend ourselves and build our own culture on our land. Recognize what we are capable of."

    Humans: "See! We were right all along to want to kill you."

    Mutants: *Proceed to protect themselves better than ever*

    Humans: "Look how horrible and evil they are! Kill them!"

    -Pav, who is a little surprised at some of the responses to House of X...
    Pretty much. Somebody made a very good point in a chain of Twitter posts that the responses to House of X are very telling about the responders' point of view on groups that have been persecuted or marginalized for being different from the norm embracing those differences instead of trying to minimize them to seem more palatable to the dominant culture, which is all too often the main cause of their marginalization and persecution. Perhaps in shorter words, if a persecuted or marginalized group deciding that they're no longer going to hide from or be ashamed of what makes them different or stand out from the dominant culture makes some people uneasy, maybe those people are the ones with the problem. Hell, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse has a version of the same lesson: "What makes you different is what makes you Spider-Man," basically saying that you don't have to fit into preestablished norms, especially those preestablished by a society and world that looks at you with indifference and apathy at best and disdain and disgust at worst, to deserve to live, succeed, and be happy.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I swear some of the posts here could be copied and pasted into the mouth of an anti-mutant politician in the X-books lol
    If mutants existed, there would be many causes for concern. Right now, we have candidates for president calling for confiscation of AR-15s. If people existed who had powers in excess of that, what should be done to keep them from abusing this power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much. Somebody made a very good point in a chain of Twitter posts that the responses to House of X are very telling about the responders' point of view on groups that have been persecuted or marginalized for being different from the norm embracing those differences instead of trying to minimize them to seem more palatable to the dominant culture, which is all too often the main cause of their marginalization and persecution. Perhaps in shorter words, if a persecuted or marginalized group deciding that they're no longer going to hide from or be ashamed of what makes them different or stand out from the dominant culture makes some people uneasy, maybe those people are the ones with the problem. Hell, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse has a version of the same lesson: "What makes you different is what makes you Spider-Man," basically saying that you don't have to fit into preestablished norms, especially those preestablished by a society and world that looks at you with indifference and apathy at best and disdain and disgust at worst, to deserve to live, succeed, and be happy.
    Was it this one?

    https://twitter.com/excel522/status/...326071296?s=19

    Hickman's relaunch makes some big changes, and the biggest is that mutants as a whole no longer want to be assimilated. It's no longer about people who want to be equal, but about people who see themselves as superior (in this case they have the special abilities to back it up) which changes the civil rights metaphor in interesting ways.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If mutants existed, there would be many causes for concern. Right now, we have candidates for president calling for confiscation of AR-15s. If people existed who had powers in excess of that, what should be done to keep them from abusing this power?
    The analogy doesn't work. Guns aren't sentient beings driven by nature and nurture. The issue about guns is that any random person with unchecked background or some guy who goes postal and radicalized can get access to it. In the case of mutants, you have actual people and individuals who are transformed by the X-Gene.

    Likewise mutant powers aren't inherently lethal with a couple of exceptions. Wolverine's mutant power is his healing factor. Left to himself he isn't lethal but then mankind happened. As Logan's promos goes, "Nature made me a freak. Man made me a weapon. And God made it last too long." Magneto's powers of magnetism aren't lethal by itself, he has to make an effort to use it lethally. Same with telekinesis and teleportation, or Kitty Pryde phasing through stuff. Whereas guns exist for the sole unambiguous purpose of killing people.

    Hickman's relaunch makes some big changes, and the biggest is that mutants as a whole no longer want to be assimilated. It's no longer about people who want to be equal, but about people who see themselves as superior (in this case they have the special abilities to back it up) which changes the civil rights metaphor in interesting ways.
    It's not about "superiority". I mean some mutants do see things that way, but it's about mutants playing hardball. The core idea as Magneto says in HOX#5 is "What would happen when—like with man—the greatest necessary traits in mutantdom weren't strength and aggressiveness, but intelligence, ingenuity, and creativity?"

    That's what it's about.

  12. #72
    Spectacular Member Hugo Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Humans: "We hate and fear you, so we're gonna kill you with big robots."

    Mutants: "Please don't. Let's live in peace. We'll even round up evil mutants as an offering."

    Humans: "Nah, we're gonna kill you."

    Mutants: "Fine, we're going to defend ourselves and build our own culture on our land. Recognize what we are capable of."

    Humans: "See! We were right all along to want to kill you."

    Mutants: *Proceed to protect themselves better than ever*

    Humans: "Look how horrible and evil they are! Kill them!"

    -Pav, who is a little surprised at some of the responses to House of X...
    There is only one flaw in this argument: you're generalizing humans. There is humans who hates mutants and want to kill them all, but not ALL humans. By generalizing an entire race, they become as racist as anyone trying to kill them.

    I also think the mutants were wrong in the moment the mutants assume the role as homo superior (when mutants and humans can have children, which which confirms that they are a human subspecie, not a independent race) and next step of evolution, instead as new ethnicity, they are basically claiming to be superior to the human race and who will one day take her place on the planet.

    The worst part is that isn't all mutants who thinks this way (I think New Mutants will address this issue), but unfortunately their spokesmen believe in their superiority (especially Xavier) and because of this belief the mutants suffer attacks from humans who feel threatened by them.
    Last edited by Hugo Strange; 09-22-2019 at 09:24 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The analogy doesn't work. Guns aren't sentient beings driven by nature and nurture. The issue about guns is that any random person with unchecked background or some guy who goes postal and radicalized can get access to it. In the case of mutants, you have actual people and individuals who are transformed by the X-Gene.

    Likewise mutant powers aren't inherently lethal with a couple of exceptions. Wolverine's mutant power is his healing factor. Left to himself he isn't lethal but then mankind happened. As Logan's promos goes, "Nature made me a freak. Man made me a weapon. And God made it last too long." Magneto's powers of magnetism aren't lethal by itself, he has to make an effort to use it lethally. Same with telekinesis and teleportation, or Kitty Pryde phasing through stuff. Whereas guns exist for the sole unambiguous purpose of killing people.



    It's not about "superiority". I mean some mutants do see things that way, but it's about mutants playing hardball. The core idea as Magneto says in HOX#5 is "What would happen when—like with man—the greatest necessary traits in mutantdom weren't strength and aggressiveness, but intelligence, ingenuity, and creativity?"

    That's what it's about.
    You are forgetting his claws which are decidedly lethal whether encased in admantium or not.

  14. #74

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    One thing I'm looking forward to, that probably won't happen: an excuse to bring back Paul Jenkins' Fusion. If he still has his powers, he could be part of the X-Men pardon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The analogy doesn't work. Guns aren't sentient beings driven by nature and nurture. The issue about guns is that any random person with unchecked background or some guy who goes postal and radicalized can get access to it. In the case of mutants, you have actual people and individuals who are transformed by the X-Gene.

    Likewise mutant powers aren't inherently lethal with a couple of exceptions. Wolverine's mutant power is his healing factor. Left to himself he isn't lethal but then mankind happened. As Logan's promos goes, "Nature made me a freak. Man made me a weapon. And God made it last too long." Magneto's powers of magnetism aren't lethal by itself, he has to make an effort to use it lethally. Same with telekinesis and teleportation, or Kitty Pryde phasing through stuff. Whereas guns exist for the sole unambiguous purpose of killing people.
    Guns do serve other purposes (hunting, deterence) but there would still remain the policy question of what restrictions we would want on someone like Pyro, who can use their powers lethally, or someone like Kitty Pryde, who could steal a lot of classified documents.

    It's not about "superiority". I mean some mutants do see things that way, but it's about mutants playing hardball. The core idea as Magneto says in HOX#5 is "What would happen when—like with man—the greatest necessary traits in mutantdom weren't strength and aggressiveness, but intelligence, ingenuity, and creativity?"

    That's what it's about.
    Magneto also said that humans have new gods. Which changes the civil rights metaphor.

  15. #75
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If mutants existed, there would be many causes for concern. Right now, we have candidates for president calling for confiscation of AR-15s. If people existed who had powers in excess of that, what should be done to keep them from abusing this power?



    Was it this one?

    https://twitter.com/excel522/status/...326071296?s=19

    Hickman's relaunch makes some big changes, and the biggest is that mutants as a whole no longer want to be assimilated. It's no longer about people who want to be equal, but about people who see themselves as superior (in this case they have the special abilities to back it up) which changes the civil rights metaphor in interesting ways.
    Yeah, it was that one.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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