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  1. #76
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    It's the "Original Position" Dilemma. Much of the debate comes from who the reader can identify most with. The problem is that Mutants are a fictional group and thus while people can identify with and relate to them, they'll never truly be a part of the group. Because of that, many readers will default to "humans"'s side. It's a problem that later "Infamous" games had and I get a similar feeling from Yu-Gi-Oh! VRAINS in regard to the Ignis.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    It's the "Original Position" Dilemma. Much of the debate comes from who the reader can identify most with. The problem is that Mutants are a fictional group and thus while people can identify with and relate to them, they'll never truly be a part of the group. Because of that, many readers will default to "humans"'s side.
    The "humans" in this case are corporations and spy groups like Orchis which includes HYDRA personnel. No way I will ever identify with them.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    It should affect Spider-Man a lot, but over the past few years Marvel has really distanced the X-Men from non-mutant characters in terms of relationships, which sucks so much. Peter used to be pretty close to the X-Men, and even had respect from Logan, so much so that Logan put Peter in his last will.

    Spidey taught a class there and the kids like Rockslide, Glob, and co. really fell hard for the guy after a few classes and probably became better X-Men 'cause of him. Then there's his speech to Hope, who's a member of The Five, that I liked to believe left a huge impact on her during AvX (not to mention her father referring to Peter as the best of them). There's tons more that I'm forgetting here.

    Maybe I'm overthinking it. I just want Peter to interact with them again. Outside of the X-Men I like Spider-Man and that's it pretty much.

    I get the X-Men have strained relations with the rest of the MU's heroes, but Spidey's the one they can trust. I like it when they meet him and he reminds them why he's the best. Zdarsky did this recently in his Daredevil where Peter talks Matt down and convinces him to stop his reckless behavior and Matt just breaks down because he can't argue against Spider-Man like he could with the others.

    I haven't kept up with Absolute Carnage, so shouldn't Knull and co. be going after some of the X-Men, too?
    It's sad that the connection with Peter and Nate Grey with awry.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much. Somebody made a very good point in a chain of Twitter posts that the responses to House of X are very telling about the responders' point of view on groups that have been persecuted or marginalized for being different from the norm embracing those differences instead of trying to minimize them to seem more palatable to the dominant culture, which is all too often the main cause of their marginalization and persecution. Perhaps in shorter words, if a persecuted or marginalized group deciding that they're no longer going to hide from or be ashamed of what makes them different or stand out from the dominant culture makes some people uneasy, maybe those people are the ones with the problem. Hell, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse has a version of the same lesson: "What makes you different is what makes you Spider-Man," basically saying that you don't have to fit into preestablished norms, especially those preestablished by a society and world that looks at you with indifference and apathy at best and disdain and disgust at worst, to deserve to live, succeed, and be happy.
    Great points. Minority groups get faced with that all the time in America. They are told to raise themselves up by their bootstraps "just like my family did"... but then when a minority group tries to do exactly that by promoting and supporting businesses and interests owned and controlled by their own, some people don't like that either. The group gets accused of being exclusionary (oh the irony), or "making it about race" or the old chestnuts of "if there were a WHITE Entertainment Television..." and the like. The group is put into a game that is stacked against them and expected to excel. Opting out of said game, or at least trying to create their own space in the game, is somehow both expected and frowned upon. It's a no win situation. "Create wealth and opportunities from within, but not TOO much from within. But not from outside either".

    I love the status quo of mutants doing exactly what so many humans have always wanted. They are "sticking to their own". The humans are getting exactly what they asked for. I hope the period of mutant success and operating from a position of equality (or even strength) continues for a good long time.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    It's sad that the connection with Peter and Nate Grey with awry.
    Yeah, though considering Nate Grey's turn in X-Men Disassembled and Age of X-Man, I'm guessing Peter might be having flashbacks to Clone Conspiracy-era Ben Reilly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    Great points. Minority groups get faced with that all the time in America. They are told to raise themselves up by their bootstraps "just like my family did"... but then when a minority group tries to do exactly that by promoting and supporting businesses and interests owned and controlled by their own, some people don't like that either. The group gets accused of being exclusionary (oh the irony), or "making it about race" or the old chestnuts of "if there were a WHITE Entertainment Television..." and the like. The group is put into a game that is stacked against them and expected to excel. Opting out of said game, or at least trying to create their own space in the game, is somehow both expected and frowned upon. It's a no win situation. "Create wealth and opportunities from within, but not TOO much from within. But not from outside either".

    I love the status quo of mutants doing exactly what so many humans have always wanted. They are "sticking to their own". The humans are getting exactly what they asked for. I hope the period of mutant success and operating from a position of equality (or even strength) continues for a good long time.
    The ultimate catch-22, as it were.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    Great points. Minority groups get faced with that all the time in America. They are told to raise themselves up by their bootstraps "just like my family did"... but then when a minority group tries to do exactly that by promoting and supporting businesses and interests owned and controlled by their own, some people don't like that either. The group gets accused of being exclusionary (oh the irony), or "making it about race" or the old chestnuts of "if there were a WHITE Entertainment Television..." and the like. The group is put into a game that is stacked against them and expected to excel. Opting out of said game, or at least trying to create their own space in the game, is somehow both expected and frowned upon. It's a no win situation. "Create wealth and opportunities from within, but not TOO much from within. But not from outside either".

    I love the status quo of mutants doing exactly what so many humans have always wanted. They are "sticking to their own". The humans are getting exactly what they asked for. I hope the period of mutant success and operating from a position of equality (or even strength) continues for a good long time.
    I mean think of the Tulsa Pogroms where Black Wall Street was bombed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

    That's a real life analogy of Genosha and the Sentinels right there.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The "humans" in this case are corporations and spy groups like Orchis which includes HYDRA personnel. No way I will ever identify with them.
    Do you really think that “normal people” aren’t included? That’s what makes it the “Original Position” Fallacy. I think Watchmen covered it very well.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Do you really think that “normal people” aren’t included?
    ORCHIS is a space station factory dedicated to building a self-replicating sentinel that has top-security clearance with advanced military/scientific/other personnel. No one aboard Orchis qualifies as normal.

    That’s what makes it the “Original Position” Fallacy. I think Watchmen covered it very well.
    I heard this argument about the ordinary personnel on the Death Star who all got blasted to smithereens by Luke Skywalker. It didn't convince me then, it doesn't convince me now. The Orchis is the Death Star for Mutants and deserved to be destroyed.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    that you can come up with fresh twists and interpretations of a decades old concept and do it brilliantly is probably the only take-away for spidey
    troo fan or death

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I mean think of the Tulsa Pogroms where Black Wall Street was bombed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

    That's a real life analogy of Genosha and the Sentinels right there.
    Great point. Agreed.

    On the non combat personnel on the Sentinal Ship... The scientists would all be highly trained, skilled and educated people at or near the top of their fields, I'd think. That's a fair assumption imo. So they could work tons of places. They have other great options. They chose to build genocide engines. I have no sympathy. It's not even a case like a police force where there is corruption and systematic oppression in that even the worst forces (looking at you, Baltimore) still have good, honest members who try their best not to contribute to the horribleness. Everyone aboard the ship knew what was going on and chose to be a part of building something that exists to kill one particular group of people.

  11. #86

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    I think it would affect him personally and his reaction would mirror the FF. He would have some sympathy and understanding but still give them the side-eye because of certain decisions they make.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    Guns do serve other purposes (hunting
    by killing the animals

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    ,deterrent)
    by threat of killing people

    i mean, we could use the same argument to bring back swords

    Magneto also said that humans have new gods. Which changes the civil rights metaphor.

    that it has.
    Last edited by boots; 09-24-2019 at 07:58 PM.
    troo fan or death

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    It's the "Original Position" Dilemma. Much of the debate comes from who the reader can identify most with. The problem is that Mutants are a fictional group and thus while people can identify with and relate to them, they'll never truly be a part of the group. Because of that, many readers will default to "humans"'s side. It's a problem that later "Infamous" games had and I get a similar feeling from Yu-Gi-Oh! VRAINS in regard to the Ignis.
    i’d say a lot of readers, perhaps members of alienated minorities, would find it easy to side with the mutants

    the fact that hickman gets me to sympathise with the mother mold peeps at all is a testament to his skills
    troo fan or death

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i’d say a lot of readers, perhaps members of alienated minorities, would find it easy to side with the mutants

    the fact that hickman gets me to sympathise with the mother mold peeps at all is a testament to his skills
    It's certainly the case that Hickman is painting in shades of nuance and grays. Remember New Avengers where he had the Marvel Avengers fight Not-Justice League and at the end of it you realize that the Avengers are absolutely horrible people and war criminals basically, and that their Illuminati bravado about "Getting things done/making hard decisions/this is why we must mind-wipe and put you in N-Zone Gulag" is just hot air and doesn't justify what they do. At the same time you do sympathize and empathize with the Illuminati and understand the stakes that drive them...the incursions are real threats and dangers.

    But at the same time empathizing with someone doesn't mean validation. Overall the X-Men and mutants are the good guys and the Mother Mold jerks are genocidal bent cases.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's certainly the case that Hickman is painting in shades of nuance and grays. Remember New Avengers where he had the Marvel Avengers fight Not-Justice League and at the end of it you realize that the Avengers are absolutely horrible people and war criminals basically, and that their Illuminati bravado about "Getting things done/making hard decisions/this is why we must mind-wipe and put you in N-Zone Gulag" is just hot air and doesn't justify what they do. At the same time you do sympathize and empathize with the Illuminati and understand the stakes that drive them...the incursions are real threats and dangers.
    yeah, that story made me a fan

    But at the same time empathizing with someone doesn't mean validation. Overall the X-Men and mutants are the good guys and the Mother Mold jerks are genocidal bent cases.
    truth
    troo fan or death

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