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  1. #91
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    After reading House ofX#5, all I can think is that, for mutants who have become ridiculously pragmatic, they dropped the ball by not just stealing New U's knowledge from Ben, instead of using that ridiculously convoluted cloning method

    (Yes, I know it's better to keep it self-contained, but still funny that they went that far when you know of less convoluted methods by looking at other comics).

  2. #92
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    But...But..... the degeneration factor!

  3. #93
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    But...But..... the degeneration factor!
    Which was gone by Clone Conspiracy itself, since Spidey learned how to stop it without the pills, something Ben knows about, since he used it to not die.

  4. #94
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    After reading House ofX#5, all I can think is that, for mutants who have become ridiculously pragmatic, they dropped the ball by not just stealing New U's knowledge from Ben, instead of using that ridiculously convoluted cloning method

    (Yes, I know it's better to keep it self-contained, but still funny that they went that far when you know of less convoluted methods by looking at other comics).
    But that would be human science and not a Mutant achievement.

  5. #95
    Fantastic Member Yvonmukluk's Avatar
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    Wasn't it established that Madame Web (the original one) was a mutant? So we could see her returned to life.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    At this point, the biggest critical and sales hit for Marvel is Jonathan Hickman's X-Men relaunch.

    I'm curious about what you guys think the implications are for Spider-Man, both in terms of what's going on with the Marvel Universe and what this might mean for publishing down the line.

    One takeaway is that one of Miles Morales' best friends (Goldballs) has suddenly become very important.
    The Avengers are going to get dragged into this, as are the Fantastic Four when the X-Men pursue their Omega Level Prise (and a Hickman favorite) in Franklin Richards. So I think you see Spider-Man get involved at some point, and maybe he's one of a handful of characters who is split down the middle. He's had close ties with X-Men, from Iceman to Wolverine. He's arguably one of the FF's closest allies and someone a 15 year old Franklin idolizes. I think he's a pretty interesting character for Hickman to play around with if and when Franklin and the FF come into play. It's Hickman, you know they will.

  7. #97
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    After reading House ofX#5, all I can think is that, for mutants who have become ridiculously pragmatic, they dropped the ball by not just stealing New U's knowledge from Ben, instead of using that ridiculously convoluted cloning method

    (Yes, I know it's better to keep it self-contained, but still funny that they went that far when you know of less convoluted methods by looking at other comics).
    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    But...But..... the degeneration factor!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Which was gone by Clone Conspiracy itself, since Spidey learned how to stop it without the pills, something Ben knows about, since he used it to not die.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    But that would be human science and not a Mutant achievement.
    Interesting points there. I could see them rejecting the New U Technologies method of "reanimation" because their own methods of resurrection transcend human science. However, that likely wouldn't stop someone on the human side from trying to harvest what was left of New U's secrets to achieve the same thing, or similar enough, so that humans could stand more of a chance at retaining dominion over the planet against effectively immortal mutants. At the very least, they'd no longer be so dependent on Krakoa's miracle drugs for their survival. Now that I think about it, didn't Otto/Superior Octopus improve on the New U tech by incorporating what he remembered of the Inheritors' method of cloning new bodies and transferring their consciousnesses into them?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    The Doylist answer is that Hickman prefers doing something X-Men-y and doing stuff in a way that leaves no ambiguity whatsoever about resurrection stuff and how things work. From a storytelling perspective, it was important to show that mutant powers working together in harmony, could show creativity and ingenuity, and by themselves resurrect their heroes back from the dead. Likewise, Hickman offers a cold precise version of how those X-Men fought, died, and returned.

    The Clone Conspiracy crap is entirely ambiguous and unclear. The idea of bringing souls back is just ridiculous as a premise and is a huge stretch. The whole scientifically prove souls exist and can be brought back is hogwash as a concept.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Doylist answer is that Hickman prefers doing something X-Men-y and doing stuff in a way that leaves no ambiguity whatsoever about resurrection stuff and how things work. From a storytelling perspective, it was important to show that mutant powers working together in harmony, could show creativity and ingenuity, and by themselves resurrect their heroes back from the dead. Likewise, Hickman offers a cold precise version of how those X-Men fought, died, and returned.

    The Clone Conspiracy crap is entirely ambiguous and unclear. The idea of bringing souls back is just ridiculous as a premise and is a huge stretch. The whole scientifically prove souls exist and can be brought back is hogwash as a concept.
    It's as much hogwash as the resurrection stuff in Hickman's run. Neither one is more believable than the other.

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's as much hogwash as the resurrection stuff in Hickman's run. Neither one is more believable than the other.
    The entire mechanics are explained clearly in HOX#5. Resurrection involves multiple moving parts. There's the fetus and embryo, the time bubble for rapid aging, the DNA on file, the gestation and other environmental stuff, the energy and power needed, and of course the actual brain patterns and consciousness come from Cerebro. I am missing a couple details but even those details are spelled out. You got to know every single moving part of that process.

    Whereas in the Clone Conspiracy (and the 90s Clone Saga) never explained any of that. How did Miles Warren get access to the DNA? How did he upload memories of Gwen Stacy into the clone...and where did he get those memories from, and if he faked it, how did he do it? Why does Warren's clone take the form of fully formed adults and if they didn't how do they age so quickly? None of that was explained. The Clone Conspiracy takes it further with this entire soul crap.

    The original Clone Saga in the 70s by Conway actually did get a detailed explanation in the Spectacular Annual that Conway did (in a blissful period when Warren was forgotten and nobody had any interest in Jackal--not coincidentally a very strong period for the title quality and sales-wise) namely that Warren didn't clone anyone, he was a hack that tortured regular people into clone-lookalikes. That explanation made a lot more sense than the garbage-fire of the Second Clone Saga.

    In general, the verisimilitude of the X-Men as a setting and story allows you to elegantly explain and define stuff like that more then Spider-Man does. X-Men have a huge sprawling setting dealing with goverments, corporations, and international scale, and the whole idea of mutant persecution allows for government experimentation and exploitation of mutants to fit that world like a glove. In LOGAN, when they introduced that Wolverine Clone, it needed little-to-no explanation because that setting automatically features that as a given. Whereas in Spider-Man, you don't really have that freedom. The main reason why Jackal has never worked as a villain is that nobody has ever satisfyingly answered how a hack professor at ESU created human cloning. There's a disproportion in the scale and character at Jackal. Conway painted him as an obsessed creep with a Humbert Humbert fixation because Warren was conceived as a representation of the Gwen Stacy fandom that in Conway's view only cared for Gwen after she died (true) and that this fixation amounted to necrophilia (also true).

    If anything, the idea of Cerebro storing brain patterns and copying and uploading those patterns into a husk might well have been inspired by Dying Wish since that's how Doc Ock hijacked Peter's body. He overrode his brain patterns. I am not a fan of Slott at all but I will say that the mechanics of how Otto hijacked Peter, much as I think that story didn't deserve to exist, is solid. Otto being linked to neurology via his mental command of arms is fair and plays with the rules and doesn't depart from the setting. I do think however that ultimately that kind of identity impersonation doesn't fit Otto as a character.

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Whereas in the Clone Conspiracy (and the 90s Clone Saga) never explained any of that. How did Miles Warren get access to the DNA? How did he upload memories of Gwen Stacy into the clone...and where did he get those memories from, and if he faked it, how did he do it? Why does Warren's clone take the form of fully formed adults and if they didn't how do they age so quickly? None of that was explained. The Clone Conspiracy takes it further with this entire soul crap.
    the 90s saga did go into all that stuff. ymmv as to whether it was satisfactory.

    i would hesitate to compare a lot of the marvel sci fi mumbo jumbo to what hickman is pulling off in x-men. is clone conspiracy less comprehensive and comprehensible than house of x? hell yes. the 90s saga is better, but also not even close. but is the original saga's handwavium science on par? nope. not even in the race.

    spoilers:
    even then, house of x calls the downloads "essence" and "the soul"...even though they're essentially just copies. which fits with all the spidey stuff
    end of spoilers

    i think the spidey clone stuff (bar clone conspiracy) measures up to marvel universe silliness in general. how is warren a genius? the same way a huge portion of random people in the marvel universe just seem to read a book and become polymaths. it works if you want it to, and doesn't if you want to fight it.
    Last edited by boots; 09-25-2019 at 09:16 PM.
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  12. #102
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i think the spidey clone stuff (bar clone conspiracy) measures up to marvel universe silliness in general.
    It depends on how deep your sense of the overall coherence of the Marvel Universe really is. Think of questions like why are mutants persecuted but Avengers and Fantastic Four venerated? The Watsonian explanations are plenty but the hard Doylist fact is...at heart every title in Marvel is essentially a separate story unto itself for the great part.

    So there are stuff you can do with some characters, stories that fit better with some characters, than others. I seem to remember a few people here complaining that Tom Taylor's opening story in FNSM the whole "Under New York" thing was more suited to a Fantastic Four story than a Spider-Man story. Well that proves the validity of the Doylist fact. At heart these are standalone characters who share a universe but essentially their individual stories aren't greatly affected or dependent on that shared universe.

    how is warren a genius? the same way a huge portion of random people in the marvel universe just seem to read a book and become polymaths. it works if you want it to, and doesn't if you want to fight it.
    Most Spider-Man villains and rogues with science-fiction abilities and technology have simple origins/gimmicks/gadgets. Vulture gets his abilities from technology he invented, Dr. Octopus gets his abilities by technology he invented + a radiation event. Sandman, Electro were caught in some accident that gave them sand abilities and electricity. The Chameleon is a spy who uses makeup abilities and tech. The Lizard was a doctor who experimented to cure himself of the loss of limb but made himself a lizard. Their characters are also consistent. It's either scientists gone bad, scientists experimenting on themselves, or criminals given powers (Electro, Sandman). So there's a consistency there. It's basically a one-sentence origin. Even Green Goblin. Bent industrialist and weapons manufacturer experiments on himself and turns him into a costumed villain with gadgets.

    With Warren. You have to explain that he's an ESU professor teaching freshman in college. Not grad school but college. And not MIT or a top-tier institute but ESU (basically NYU which is a good university and all but not bleeding edge genetics stuff). You have to explain that he wants to have sex with one of his students(And there's literally no getting past that) but she's young and in a relationship with someone else. Then when she died, you have to explain that this hack suddenly discovered human cloning by hanging out with the High Evolutionary in Wundagore or somewhere. Then he becomes a villain called the Jackal (wearing a costume that doesn't look like a jackal).

    So that's why Jackal sucks, why clone saga sucks, and why he doesn't fit the Spider-Man mythos at all.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It depends on how deep your sense of the overall coherence of the Marvel Universe really is. Think of questions like why are mutants persecuted but Avengers and Fantastic Four venerated? The Watsonian explanations are plenty but the hard Doylist fact is...at heart every title in Marvel is essentially a separate story unto itself for the great part.

    So there are stuff you can do with some characters, stories that fit better with some characters, than others. I seem to remember a few people here complaining that Tom Taylor's opening story in FNSM the whole "Under New York" thing was more suited to a Fantastic Four story than a Spider-Man story. Well that proves the validity of the Doylist fact. At heart these are standalone characters who share a universe but essentially their individual stories aren't greatly affected or dependent on that shared universe.



    Most Spider-Man villains and rogues with science-fiction abilities and technology have simple origins/gimmicks/gadgets. Vulture gets his abilities from technology he invented, Dr. Octopus gets his abilities by technology he invented + a radiation event. Sandman, Electro were caught in some accident that gave them sand abilities and electricity. The Chameleon is a spy who uses makeup abilities and tech. The Lizard was a doctor who experimented to cure himself of the loss of limb but made himself a lizard. Their characters are also consistent. It's either scientists gone bad, scientists experimenting on themselves, or criminals given powers (Electro, Sandman). So there's a consistency there. It's basically a one-sentence origin. Even Green Goblin. Bent industrialist and weapons manufacturer experiments on himself and turns him into a costumed villain with gadgets.

    With Warren. You have to explain that he's an ESU professor teaching freshman in college. Not grad school but college. And not MIT or a top-tier institute but ESU (basically NYU which is a good university and all but not bleeding edge genetics stuff). You have to explain that he wants to have sex with one of his students(And there's literally no getting past that) but she's young and in a relationship with someone else. Then when she died, you have to explain that this hack suddenly discovered human cloning by hanging out with the High Evolutionary in Wundagore or somewhere. Then he becomes a villain called the Jackal (wearing a costume that doesn't look like a jackal).

    So that's why Jackal sucks, why clone saga sucks, and why he doesn't fit the Spider-Man mythos at all.
    mate, you have a very specific idea of what you like. you're an impressive apologist for the stuff that supports it with a demonstrable ability to demonise stuff that doesn't... and you almost make it sound like it's not simply down to your tastes.

    that kinda talk is not my jam though.
    Last edited by boots; 09-25-2019 at 10:04 PM.
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  14. #104
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    But that would be human science and not a Mutant achievement.
    I don't think they care about that, specialy since they stole info from humans, what's to stop them from stealing info on how to make clones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvonmukluk View Post
    Wasn't it established that Madame Web (the original one) was a mutant? So we could see her returned to life.
    I think that's an Ultimate thing, I don't remember her being stabilished as a mutant in 616.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    The Avengers are going to get dragged into this, as are the Fantastic Four when the X-Men pursue their Omega Level Prise (and a Hickman favorite) in Franklin Richards. So I think you see Spider-Man get involved at some point, and maybe he's one of a handful of characters who is split down the middle. He's had close ties with X-Men, from Iceman to Wolverine. He's arguably one of the FF's closest allies and someone a 15 year old Franklin idolizes. I think he's a pretty interesting character for Hickman to play around with if and when Franklin and the FF come into play. It's Hickman, you know they will.
    One thing's for sure, if Spidey learns about the clones that the Krakoans are making, his reaction shouldn't be anything but a variation of "Guys, what the fuck?" lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Interesting points there. I could see them rejecting the New U Technologies method of "reanimation" because their own methods of resurrection transcend human science. However, that likely wouldn't stop someone on the human side from trying to harvest what was left of New U's secrets to achieve the same thing, or similar enough, so that humans could stand more of a chance at retaining dominion over the planet against effectively immortal mutants. At the very least, they'd no longer be so dependent on Krakoa's miracle drugs for their survival. Now that I think about it, didn't Otto/Superior Octopus improve on the New U tech by incorporating what he remembered of the Inheritors' method of cloning new bodies and transferring their consciousnesses into them?
    Yeah I think so, I remember that he transfered his mind to another body of his, and I don't think New U had that tech yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It depends on how deep your sense of the overall coherence of the Marvel Universe really is. Think of questions like why are mutants persecuted but Avengers and Fantastic Four venerated? The Watsonian explanations are plenty but the hard Doylist fact is...at heart every title in Marvel is essentially a separate story unto itself for the great part.
    To be fair, it's not that far fetched, mutant hatred is ultimately prejudice, and prejudice has barely any real logic and is often contradictory, real life is a depressing example of how that actualy happens, the only silly thing on Marvel is how widespread it is, since nowadays most people are really apathetic at worst (Emphasis on most people, I'm not denying that violent hate crimes happen, but they aren't a representative of people for the most part), but Marvel makes it look like that all of 5 civilians don't hate mutants.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    To be fair, it's not that far fetched, mutant hatred is ultimately prejudice, and prejudice has barely any real logic and is often contradictory, real life is a depressing example of how that actualy happens, the only silly thing on Marvel is how widespread it is, since nowadays most people are really apathetic at worst (Emphasis on most people, I'm not denying that violent hate crimes happen, but they aren't a representative of people for the most part), but Marvel makes it look like that all of 5 civilians don't hate mutants.
    Yeah, I get that. The FF and Avengers are special chosen few figures who aren't likely to multiply whereas the X-Men and mutantkind are poised to inherit the world.

    It's just that for me, I don't need that. I get that the X-Men is a separate story that just happens to exist in a shared universe. The same way Spider-Man is. Likewise Daredevil. Also Thor.

    The shared universe was always a gimmick to sell titles across the Marvel line, and it was basically a magic trick but you were always expected to drop-in and drop-out.

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