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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    This is what happens when Bruce punches Clark in his big fat face
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    Well, atleast damian can punch jon without getting his hand broken.

  2. #47
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    This is what happens when Bruce punches Clark in his big fat face
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    Oooh... that. We need more of that.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, atleast damian can punch jon without getting his hand broken.
    Yep this is one area where the bastard comes ahead off his father in the world's finest pairing.

  4. #49
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    @JAK Yeah so true.

  5. #50
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    This is what happens when Bruce punches Clark in his big fat face
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    Yeah I was going to say that between Death in the Family and For Tomorrow I think it's fair to say they have had pretty clear skirmishes with logical outcomes. If someone were to point out that Batman has more to offer than that, even though a huge selling point is his direct Chuck Norrisness, it's not like it would work any better for him even with that laser he carries. If he went home and came back later he would need facilitation outside of regular means. In order to even use kryptonite he needed the big seven league members plus a few new gods to steady Superman in one place.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Oh, it was redundant a looong time ago (I know I'm preaching to the choir on that, I'm just stating). I was actually joking with both of these, but my point was more that it's been so skewed now that DC doesn't bill the A v E fight like "A is screwed" so much as "A v E is a clash of titans" kinda thing. If that were true, then the ant isn't really an ant at that point. And I'm not sure about anticipation: I'm more surprised when DC actually gives him the L, as I generally have absolutely no anticipation that it'll happen. So, while the sizes don't change, when we generally assume that the ant will have plot armor and the elephant won't... are the stakes really that high?
    What I tried to say really though is that it makes you think: "okay they're going to have Batman win, but how? Because he shouldn't." It's not much fun anymore (for us) but no one ever loses sight of the sensible outcome.

    Hero vs hero is so popular, but relies on sketchy plot and characterization with one character getting the short end. Unless it's one of a million stalemates that lead to a team up. The appeal of Batman is that Superman should be outside of his pay grade, so for what it's worth I'd call them technically bad Batman stories. Especially if they ape DKR. That drinking game would lead to the hospital.

    It's unfortunate that Batman can be billed as a titan, but it's sort of the same for Superman. His powers put him at the top of the pecking order, over all but maybe four other heroes normally, but it's not like he's that type. Beating Superman is probably less rewarding than beating up Reed Richards (who helped kill Bill Foster and sometimes stands in as the emotionally dry science guy) because he's just a character with so much worth and purpose beyond that.

    I like seeing Superman overcome trials as well, and Batman too (usually), in all honesty. But I'm not so sure audiences don't like seeing Batman taken down a peg once in a while - the general reaction I've seen to what Superman did to Batman in "Justice League" says a lot.
    Even if he started lightening up though, that Batman was still much darker than normal. The "do you bleed" line calls back to literally almost killing a reluctant Superman who later did end up dying, so it feels more earned.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post

    To a degree, sure. But the way Lex and Bruce use what they have is different. Lex spends a considerably longer amount of time getting his schemes together, and usually it doesn't involve direct conflict with Superman.
    Bruce has a lot of training that feeds into the art of war. Lex is much meaner, but I think they break even. Despite Lex having a losing record overall, I'm sure at this point he's beaten a right minded Superman physically more times than Bruce has beaten any Superman. So to me at least it's not the worst plot even though it's dumb because they should be friends.
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  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Lex Luthor's superpower is that he's a smart mortal guy with $$$. So basically Superman's greatest enemy is more or less evil Batman.
    Except Clark doesn't lose fist fights with Lex. That's the big difference in my mind; Lex will build a trap and lock Superman in a cage with kryptonite. And I'm fine with that. I'm fine with people like Lex (and Bruce too) out maneuvering Clark; he's a super smart guy but he's not immune to manipulation. But a physical confrontation should be a different animal all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Absolutely - and I'm fine with "Hush" as well, because that's mind control, and went to lengths to state that if Clark wasn't fighting it, Bruce would be screwed. So it was less "Bruce is a bad@$$" and more "they won by working together" kinda thing.
    Hush was indeed an excellent fight; neither character was made less than they should be in that.

    That depends on the perspective. I agree fully on the Batman half, and I'm fine with all of that. On the Superman half - assuming we're not talking mind control here or an evil Superman - he shouldn't punch down, he should simply incapacitate before Bruce can blink if it comes to that. When a person runs into a wall and "loses," it's not that the wall is a dick.. it's a wall. It's not moving. If I had my preference, that's the way I'd like it to be treated.
    And if Bruce punches Clark and Clark just stands there and lets Bruce hurt his hand, great. But if Clark has to punch back, the fight's already lost and he comes out looking like a tool.
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  7. #52
    Incredible Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Batman is the most popular and well selling hero in DC's arsenal so rest of the characters are his bi*^+%s... get over it. lol
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  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Batman is the most popular and well selling hero in DC's arsenal so rest of the characters are his bi*^+%s... get over it. lol
    Sure, say the same thing to yourself when harley or another character becomes more popular and batman becomes her/his ***** we already started seeing the effect. Remember heroes in crisis.

  9. #54
    Incredible Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Sure, say the same thing to yourself when harley or another character becomes more popular and batman becomes her/his bitch.we already started seeing the effect. Remember heroes in crisis.
    This is the way of the things dude, if Batman becomes Harley's *****, so be it... i try to be objective about the subject. Money rules, whoever sells the best (right now Batman) the rest is his/her *****. (i didn't know, we can say ***** ) And even if Batman becomes harley's *****, superman will always be Batman's *****... lol this is good enough for me. hahahaha
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  10. #55

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    Money doesn't rules everything. This is about storytelling. We are talking about the creative side of things not the business. Yeah! That still matters because guess what? if they don't make good creative decisions they don't make money. I want good dynamics in my stories. This overblown superman is light and batman is getting monotonous.

  11. #56
    Incredible Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Money doesn't rules everything. This is about storytelling. We are talking about the creative side of things not the business. Yeah! That still matters because guess what? if they don't make good creative decisions they don't make money. I want good dynamics in my stories. This overblown superman is light and batman is getting monotonous.
    Money doesn't rule everything, but money rules comics... comics is about making money dude, do you think if a run reached to work of art level quality but didn't sell, DC wouldn't cancel it ? DC would cancel the shit out that title, they doN't care about creative anything, they only care about money.
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  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Money doesn't rule everything, but money rules comics... comics is about making money dude, do you think if a run reached to work of art level quality but didn't sell, DC wouldn't cancel it ? DC would cancel the shit out that title, they doN't care about creative anything, they only care about money.
    Really, just the management and the suits aren't everyone at dc company . Never said it wasn't about money. It is the end result. But, if batman prints trash. His sales will tank. The market has alternatives. I don't particularly care for the business side. I want better stories. The latest superman/Batman books pretty much sucks.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    IMO, most creators don't mix Superman and normy human heroes very well. But yeah, the whole "prep time" and "Batgod" concepts are frustrating, especially when they're repeated as gospel by fans on the internet who clearly don't actually know the comic stories but are good at repeating things they've read on the internet or saw on YouTube.
    It's a sort of collective fear at DC. You can't have street-level heroes look like pathetic chumps compared to demi-gods and super-aliens. If you did then their books might not sell...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, it's beyond over-done and stupid. It never should have happened outside of DKR, honestly. Though I do really like how Hush handled it; that was probably their best fight in regular continuity.

    It's a bad situation where no matter how the fight goes, Batman can't lose and Clark can't win. If Batman wins, he's the mortal guy who defeated a god. If he loses, well he's a mortal guy fighting a god so living through it and not dying is a victory. If Clark wins, he's a god who slapped a mortal; it's not a fair fight and Clark's a dick for punching down. If Clark loses, he's a god who lost to a dude in a bat costume who's only super power is "money."
    Yeah, I'd characterize it as putting a dangerous lunatic in his place. Honestly the biggest issue is how often it happens. I mean, we know Batman has an inferiority complex, but it makes him look like a lunatic when he starts stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Hell no, Iím a huge Batman fan, almost as much as Superman. Heís an awesome character and both characters benefit from the Worldís Finest dynamic, be it going for frenemy or the old fashion bromance. In fact I think Superman fans have a lot to learn from Batman fans. Frankly Superman fan base can be too damn sensitive. Well maybe thatís too harsh, maybe just the things that bother a lot of vocal fans just doesnít bother me at all. So Batman (really Green Arrow) kinda-sorta-not really beat up Clark in an Elseworlds. Who cares? It wasnít even done in a stupid way, he used Kryptonite, thatís supposed to defeat him. You think Batman fans through a fit whenever he gets beat up by a villain like Bane or whatever? Whenever Superman is vilified like in Injustice, itís blasphemy and Batwank. But when the same thing happens to Bruce like in Metal, like the BWL, itís somehow also Batwank.
    To me, the defining characteristic of "Batwank" is when the direction of the story is decided by Batman. IE everyone else is just a supporting character.
    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Hmm... *puts smar@$$ hat on*

    Query posit #1: How many times does the ant seemingly beat the elephant before the ant becomes the elephant and the elephant becomes the ant? We're constantly told that the elephant is too much for the ant, but we rarely see it shake out that way.. so when does the perception flip?

    Query posit #2: As a fan of the elephant, can't say I'd find it boring in the least to watch the ant go "squish" every now and again. Just sayin.
    Yeah, it strains credulity to ALWAYS have the under dog win. The weirdest part is how Bat-stories sometimes try to make it seem like Batman sees superpowers as a weakness. No seriously... Cheyenne Fremont was told to retire from being a hero because it was "too dangerous"... Um... she's the only non-Kryptonian Nightwing to have ever had powers? How is it too dangerous for her, but NOT too dangerous for Batgirl who doesn't have powers?? Granted Cheyenne's telekinetic powers were weak(she couldn't lift a normal human), but she barely started trying to use them as a hero.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    How many people know it's Batman day? Whenever I turn on the radio it's like national twin day or peach day or volleyball day or something.
    In Champions Online some guys got together to try celebrating it, and pretty much no one showed up.

  14. #59
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    What I tried to say really though is that it makes you think: "okay they're going to have Batman win, but how? Because he shouldn't." It's not much fun anymore (for us) but no one ever loses sight of the sensible outcome.
    I'd actually push back on this a bit. The sensible outcome has absolutely been lost on many an average person. Gurz is joking with "Superman will always be Batman's B!+c#" but there's quite a number of people who believe that with no qualifier. In that way, the ant has become the elephant.

    Hero vs hero is so popular, but relies on sketchy plot and characterization with one character getting the short end. Unless it's one of a million stalemates that lead to a team up. The appeal of Batman is that Superman should be outside of his pay grade, so for what it's worth I'd call them technically bad Batman stories. Especially if they ape DKR. That drinking game would lead to the hospital.
    Absolutely. Although since I drink Pepsi instead of alcohol (my stomach's odd like that), my hospital visit would be for kidney stones instead of alcohol poisoning, but still.. LOL

    It's unfortunate that Batman can be billed as a titan, but it's sort of the same for Superman. His powers put him at the top of the pecking order, over all but maybe four other heroes normally, but it's not like he's that type. Beating Superman is probably less rewarding than beating up Reed Richards (who helped kill Bill Foster and sometimes stands in as the emotionally dry science guy) because he's just a character with so much worth and purpose beyond that.
    Very much agreed.

    Even if he started lightening up though, that Batman was still much darker than normal. The "do you bleed" line calls back to literally almost killing a reluctant Superman who later did end up dying, so it feels more earned.
    That's true, but I think the reaction was pretty strong, even for all that.

    Bruce has a lot of training that feeds into the art of war. Lex is much meaner, but I think they break even. Despite Lex having a losing record overall, I'm sure at this point he's beaten a right minded Superman physically more times than Bruce has beaten any Superman. So to me at least it's not the worst plot even though it's dumb because they should be friends.
    Possibly - but that would have to take into account the Silver Age stories/etc, back when the idea of Batman taking on Superman wasn't a seriously considered idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Except Clark doesn't lose fist fights with Lex. That's the big difference in my mind; Lex will build a trap and lock Superman in a cage with kryptonite. And I'm fine with that. I'm fine with people like Lex (and Bruce too) out maneuvering Clark; he's a super smart guy but he's not immune to manipulation. But a physical confrontation should be a different animal all together.
    Yeah, that was kinda my thinking.

    Hush was indeed an excellent fight; neither character was made less than they should be in that.
    That's pretty important, imo - I don't want Bruce to be diminished, either: it's just that his tire is over-inflated at the moment. lol

    And if Bruce punches Clark and Clark just stands there and lets Bruce hurt his hand, great. But if Clark has to punch back, the fight's already lost and he comes out looking like a tool.
    Oh, sure - but I don't see a "win" for Superman being (in most cases) him punching back so much as him dismantling whatever Bruce has to use; one second, Bruce is in a huge armored suit with a kryptonite spear, the next he's standing there with a melted spear in his skivvies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Batman is the most popular and well selling hero in DC's arsenal so rest of the characters are his bi*^+%s... get over it. lol
    Well-selling? Sure. Popular? Maybe. But even if the rest of that is true, he owes his very existence to Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    It's a sort of collective fear at DC. You can't have street-level heroes look like pathetic chumps compared to demi-gods and super-aliens. If you did then their books might not sell...
    ...you say that like it's a bad thing. (I'm kidding, of course - just the first thing that popped into my head)

    Yeah, I'd characterize it as putting a dangerous lunatic in his place. Honestly the biggest issue is how often it happens. I mean, we know Batman has an inferiority complex, but it makes him look like a lunatic when he starts stuff.
    True. That, like so much else, is on DC/WB.

    To me, the defining characteristic of "Batwank" is when the direction of the story is decided by Batman. IE everyone else is just a supporting character.
    I now have the Adam West theme in my head, with "batwank" as a lyric substitution... lol

    Yeah, it strains credulity to ALWAYS have the under dog win. The weirdest part is how Bat-stories sometimes try to make it seem like Batman sees superpowers as a weakness. No seriously... Cheyenne Fremont was told to retire from being a hero because it was "too dangerous"... Um... she's the only non-Kryptonian Nightwing to have ever had powers? How is it too dangerous for her, but NOT too dangerous for Batgirl who doesn't have powers?? Granted Cheyenne's telekinetic powers were weak(she couldn't lift a normal human), but she barely started trying to use them as a hero.
    Yeah, I noticed some of that, too. Like super-powers are a crutch, but all the money and bat-toys aren't? Riiiiight...

    In Champions Online some guys got together to try celebrating it, and pretty much no one showed up.
    Meanwhile, the Superman Celebration in Metropolis, IL (a town of just over 7,000 people) gets 15,000-20,000 people each year, driving/flying hours away and spending $800+ for the weekend to do it. I do find it interesting that, from what I've seen, Batman day is sort of both a thing and not a thing. It strikes me a very "top-down" thing, which... given that Bruce is a millionaire corporation-owner, makes sense I suppose. But then, I don't pay close attention to it, so I might be missing elements of the whole thing.
    Last edited by JAK; 09-22-2019 at 11:10 AM.
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  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Meanwhile, the Superman Celebration in Metropolis, IL (a town of just over 7,000 people) gets 15,000-20,000 people each year, driving/flying hours away and spending $800+ for the weekend to do it. I do find it interesting that, from what I've seen, Batman day is sort of both a thing and not a thing. It strikes me a very "top-down" thing, which... given that Bruce is a millionaire corporation-owner, makes sense I suppose. But then, I don't pay close attention to it, so I might be missing elements of the whole thing.
    As Ive said, the common person adores Superman. You'll get a few jokes about the underwear or how he's so unbeatable he's boring, etc etc., but end of the day? Clark moves more t-shirts and merchandise than almost anyone, including the big name movie stars. That's how popular Superman and his legend are; it takes the combined effort of all the Avengers to sell more stuff than him.

    It's not that Superman has become unpopular; it's that DC has ****ed up for thirty years and have proven to the direct market that his books aren't worth reading because of DC's incompetence. The people who don't follow the direct market? They still love Superman and will flock to support him....until low quality drives them off. But they show up, every time, hoping to get what they and the character still deserve.
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