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  1. #181
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Jonathan told Clark to "think before he leaps" and to be careful about revealing his powers when people wouldn't be so accepting (I also don't get why Jonathan gets so much flak for this when Hippolyta is the one actively trying to stop her daughter from helping man's world and Jonathan didn't have a prophecy that his son would stop a war god from committing global genocide). It wasn't being a hero that was making Clark upset, it was the mistrust and hostility he was receiving and we did see him being happy in moments where he had reason to be happy.
    We had no big expectation for how Hippolyta should be, but we do the Kents. We expect better from them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    He's not a fragile human. Most of his stories don't take place in the context of Superman so he's correctly identified as the ultimate man. He's in the same mold as Superman, after Doc Savage and the Shadow. The things that he pushes can push him back often than not, but he usually gets to remain a step ahead. And when it's time to claim victory, he can provide sharp and satisfying wish fulfillment because he pretty much never has to hold back.





    They had Perry affirm those same fears really so that people wouldn't come to this conclusion. It wasn't really about protecting Clark even if he was their priority. Clark coming out was unprecedented and something really too big for the world to handle. At least as prepared by some random farming couple. They had no idea how to unleash what he was or protect him from the consequences, and that genie couldn't ever go back in the bottle. The "maybe" controversy misses the point that it was a disaster as these things occur. Is it fair that people die? That question has nothing to do with Clark. People will die. Is it cowardly to say Clark isn't obligated to save them, as Martha did? Selfish? Well, Jonathan gave his own life for the point. His mom saying that later in all of his turmoil goes toward the autonomy people want to see in his journey as a hero. He doesn't have to give his life, but he will and does.
    I see why some like Batman, but I never got into him. I never really loved his story or his style. To me he's so overrated as a character. I do tolerate him in the JL and interacting with Superman as work mates and good friends, though. Superman with others I'm interested in.

    And the way Pa Kent died in the movie is one of my biggest issues with MOS movie. I don't like it at all. To me Clark is so out of character. It was manufactured drama, imo. I get some of Pa's attitude, but I wish he has used different words than 'maybe'


    And I never had an issue with Clark destroying that sexual predator's truck. He had it coming. I think fans expect Superman to be so perfect all the time, but I don't. The guy had to let his frustration out somehow. At least he didn't beat the guy like Clark did in Superman 2...

  2. #182
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I see why some like Batman, but I never got into him. I never really loved his story or his style. To me he's so overrated as a character. I do tolerate him in the JL and interacting with Superman as work mates and good friends, though. Superman with others I'm interested in.

    And the way Pa Kent died in the movie is one of my biggest issues with MOS movie. I don't like it at all. To me Clark is so out of character. It was manufactured drama, imo. I get some of Pa's attitude, but I wish he has used different words than 'maybe'


    And I never had an issue with Clark destroying that sexual predator's truck. He had it coming. I think fans expect Superman to be so perfect all the time, but I don't. The guy had to let his frustration out somehow. At least he didn't beat the guy like Clark did in Superman 2...
    Like Superman, Batman has a pretty absurd number of styles, or "looks." Saying he's a bitter, obnoxious so and so to me is sort of like saying Clark is a flawless boyscout, but just a little worse admittedly because people actually enjoy the worst extreme of Batman to a popular extent.

    And the popular stories are mostly good, but pretty redundant at this point. I'll never recommend Year One even though it blew my mind, because I think it's even more exposed than the Death of Superman. The very best " look" I can recommend is the current Dark Knight Detective paperback series, taking us fresh out of CoIE with the Barr/Davis throwback stories and mostly the Grant/Breyfogle stuff that came about as the character's popularity exploded. You get dark, gritty, and street conscious stories without going to the point of self parody. It's inexpensive and the third volume should be out soon.


    More gags and social awareness than the typical superhero stuff we see now, where he's reacting to some big and maybe personal menace so frequently.

    The Legends of the Dark Knight hardcovers are good when they can be found. The Len Wein one gives you solid retro stories emphasising the detective aspect in great bulk. The upcoming Steve Englehart collection is IMO, a must for understanding and enjoying the character. Dustin Nguyen's stories with Paul Dini and Peter Milligan are collected in one volume but apparently that's not the easiest to find.

    My first memory as a human is getting my diaper changed in a restroom on a viewing of Batman 1989. Year and a half old. I can remember the shirt covering me and bits of the theater. I also remember it on VHS, and I was old enough to go crazy for Returns and the animated series. So that material will always matter a whole lot to me.

    When it comes to Pa one thing that may be overlooked is that his position doesn't necessarily work against a clandestine Superman. The kind we see in many stories where he isn't Superboy first. Clark was just a boy during the bus incident, and the important thing was that he was seen. There was no sense of security and I don't know a parent who would condone further heroics without considerable hesitation. Remember that we're plot savvy while he was in the moment, and didn't live long enough for any hindsight. The tornado thing was pretty ridiculous, but Clark wasn't supposed to be all that much older or wiser. It would have been nearly the same thing. By the time it seemed like less of a choice the damage was already done. Clark had to scale all sorts of emotional walls to get up and go be Superman.

    But that truck was worse to me than the tornado. It got some chuckles on the theater but I thought it was dumb enough to be embarrassing.
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  3. #183
    Wrath of a God Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    Yeah, I actually like Batman but I don't like how he's portrayed a lot of the time.

    They tell you he's, "just human" and then write him in such a way that he might as well be a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian.

    Pick one.

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Tell that, to batgod fans. And the guys that came on board cause of "the one man who beat you".
    I never said fans like that were right either, so, ok...

    A character being weaker shouldn't make them "uncool" imo, a lot of people think Joker's the coolest villain ever, even though characters like Thanos, Dr. Doom, Magneto and even Lex Luthor (because of his tech) are much more powerful than him.

  5. #185
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    I never said fans like that were right either, so, ok...

    A character being weaker shouldn't make them "uncool" imo, a lot of people think Joker's the coolest villain ever, even though characters like Thanos, Dr. Doom, Magneto and even Lex Luthor (because of his tech) are much more powerful than him.
    The Joker has also gone from mastermind to mad clown to serial killer and is currently in "as smart as and faster than Batman because he's skinny and this is video game rules!"

    The Joker's never done any physical conditioning a day in his life, but he's popular and we can't just have Batman pop him once when he gets in range and the fight be over. He has to be a physical threat!!!!!! Does he actually weigh more than the clothes he wears? I'd like to know.

    If a character being weaker didn't affect their coolness, he'd be a murderous clown with a theme and penchant for chemistry that, once Bruce got the drop on him, had his chips cashed. Now? He's lethal with a blade, faster than a man at peak physical condition despite weighing nothing and having no muscle mass or training to speak of, nearly as intelligent as Lex Luthor and likely a polymath himself (he did mess around with Lex's plans before bailing recently in Justice League), and has a toxin in his heart that will turn you into him? Did I miss something? I probably did.

    Popularity and the perception of being cool is exactly what DOES make you stronger in comics. It's why Batman gets away with what he does, why Harley Quinn is getting to punch above her class and why Wonder Woman traditionally plays second fiddle in situations she should absolutely reign supreme. It's why Martian Manhunter will never be the big hero of an arc if Superman is present despite the latter effectively being a weaker version of the former.

    Lex is a smarter than the Joker (he's canonically the most intelligent man on Earth), more physically imposing figure with infinitely more resources at his disposal and your evaluation is that he's only superior to the Joker "because of his tech." That's proof of concept right there. You're using his popularity to cloud your judgment. What edge does The Joker have over Lex? He's #crazy? That's only an advantage in comics, if there, because it literally never backfires on him. I've always struggled with this. I like both characters a lot, but really, the Joker has no clear advantage over Lex Luthor in any field outside sanity, and even then I question Lex's because he looks at Superman and thinks he can win.

    I know what you're trying to go for here, but the reality of the matter is that if a character is popular enough, no amount of story or logic will prevent them from snowballing that popularity into more skills/assets/feats to elevate them.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-01-2019 at 10:24 PM.

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The Joker has also gone from mastermind to mad clown to serial killer and is currently in "as smart as and faster than Batman because he's skinny and this is video game rules!"

    The Joker's never done any physical conditioning a day in his life, but he's popular and we can't just have Batman pop him once when he gets in range and the fight be over. He has to be a physical threat!!!!!! Does he actually weigh more than the clothes he wears? I'd like to know.

    If a character being weaker didn't affect their coolness, he'd be a murderous clown with a theme and penchant for chemistry that, once Bruce got the drop on him, had his chips cashed. Now? He's lethal with a blade, faster than a man at peak physical condition despite weighing nothing and having no muscle mass or training to speak of, nearly as intelligent as Lex Luthor and likely a polymath himself (he did mess around with Lex's plans before bailing recently in Justice League), and has a toxin in his heart that will turn you into him? Did I miss something? I probably did.

    Popularity and the perception of being cool is exactly what DOES make you stronger in comics. It's why Batman gets away with what he does, why Harley Quinn is getting to punch above her class and why Wonder Woman traditionally plays second fiddle in situations she should absolutely reign supreme. It's why Martian Manhunter will never be the big hero of an arc if Superman is present despite the latter effectively being a weaker version of the former.

    Lex is a smarter than the Joker (he's canonically the most intelligent man on Earth), more physically imposing figure with infinitely more resources at his disposal and your evaluation is that he's only superior to the Joker "because of his tech." That's proof of concept right there. You're using his popularity to cloud your judgment. What edge does The Joker have over Lex? He's #crazy? That's only an advantage in comics, if there, because it literally never backfires on him. I've always struggled with this. I like both characters a lot, but really, the Joker has no clear advantage over Lex Luthor in any field outside sanity, and even then I question Lex's because he looks at Superman and thinks he can win.

    I know what you're trying to go for here, but the reality of the matter is that if a character is popular enough, no amount of story or logic will prevent them from snowballing that popularity into more skills/assets/feats to elevate them.
    What I meant about Lex and mentioning his tech wasn't to say that's the only edge he has on Joker, I meant because of his much greater intellect he can create tech that makes him MUCH more powerful than Joker. Yes, Lex is a lot more physically imposing than Joker's lanky ass, but at the end of the they're both human.

    What puts Lex way over Joker as a threat is that he can create powerful power armors Joker can't. If he really wanted to he can put on his Warsuit, fly to Gotham and pop Joker's head like a pimple. Something I'd love to see, and I'm a fan of Joker.

    I agree about your points on popularity adding to characters abilities, I just personally don't dislike characters because they're on the weaker side. I love Christian Bale's Batman and he's weak af compared to most versions of the character. But it doesn't matter to me, he's still one of the best interpretations of Batman ever.

  7. #187
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Seems like a rehash of DCEU debates rather than the OP theme

  8. #188
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Like Superman, Batman has a pretty absurd number of styles, or "looks." Saying he's a bitter, obnoxious so and so to me is sort of like saying Clark is a flawless boyscout, but just a little worse admittedly because people actually enjoy the worst extreme of Batman to a popular extent.

    And the popular stories are mostly good, but pretty redundant at this point. I'll never recommend Year One even though it blew my mind, because I think it's even more exposed than the Death of Superman. The very best " look" I can recommend is the current Dark Knight Detective paperback series, taking us fresh out of CoIE with the Barr/Davis throwback stories and mostly the Grant/Breyfogle stuff that came about as the character's popularity exploded. You get dark, gritty, and street conscious stories without going to the point of self parody. It's inexpensive and the third volume should be out soon.

    More gags and social awareness than the typical superhero stuff we see now, where he's reacting to some big and maybe personal menace so frequently.

    The Legends of the Dark Knight hardcovers are good when they can be found. The Len Wein one gives you solid retro stories emphasising the detective aspect in great bulk. The upcoming Steve Englehart collection is IMO, a must for understanding and enjoying the character. Dustin Nguyen's stories with Paul Dini and Peter Milligan are collected in one volume but apparently that's not the easiest to find.

    My first memory as a human is getting my diaper changed in a restroom on a viewing of Batman 1989. Year and a half old. I can remember the shirt covering me and bits of the theater. I also remember it on VHS, and I was old enough to go crazy for Returns and the animated series. So that material will always matter a whole lot to me.

    When it comes to Pa one thing that may be overlooked is that his position doesn't necessarily work against a clandestine Superman. The kind we see in many stories where he isn't Superboy first. Clark was just a boy during the bus incident, and the important thing was that he was seen. There was no sense of security and I don't know a parent who would condone further heroics without considerable hesitation. Remember that we're plot savvy while he was in the moment, and didn't live long enough for any hindsight. The tornado thing was pretty ridiculous, but Clark wasn't supposed to be all that much older or wiser. It would have been nearly the same thing. By the time it seemed like less of a choice the damage was already done. Clark had to scale all sorts of emotional walls to get up and go be Superman.

    But that truck was worse to me than the tornado. It got some chuckles on the theater but I thought it was dumb enough to be embarrassing.
    I appreciate the effort, but I'm really not interested in reading Batman. I've seen some of his movies, including the Lego one, and I just don't care enough. Maybe he just isn't for me.

    And I can't believe some think the truck was worse than the tornado... To me the truck scene was quite funny. The tornado scene almost kills the whole movie for me.. but the rest is so good I don't let it. Ah Superman fans are so unique.

  9. #189
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Seems like a rehash of DCEU debates rather than the OP theme
    The number of people who have gotten a popular comic pales in comparison to the number of people who paid to see BvS. Dunno how profit margin works in comics but still. Across media it's one of the most relevant stories.

    But yeah this whole thing now of MoS that doesn't feature Batman...

    As far as the fan dilemma goes... keep in mind what came up: the Joker is just some weird jackass and yet he stymies Batman. I got the Batman 251 facsimile today and the Joker just beats him down as if he never trained before. Two Face is the other poster boy for that, Batman is menaced by the guy and all he really has is being ugly. I say all this to say that there is a balancing opposite to the "batgod."

    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I appreciate the effort, but I'm really not interested in reading Batman. I've seen some of his movies, including the Lego one, and I just don't care enough. Maybe he just isn't for me.
    It's a bummer to me because I already see the shoe on the other foot more often. That people like Batman and just can't get with Superman. He's a mystery to people who like so many similar and technically derivative comics. There are thousands of comics for each, I think eventually anyone can pick up on these characters with time. But that's me.

    And I can't believe some think the truck was worse than the tornado... To me the truck scene was quite funny. The tornado scene almost kills the whole movie for me.. but the rest is so good I don't let it. Ah Superman fans are so unique.
    I can at least understand why the tornado causes so much ire. That sort of sets the tone of the movie and series more than anything.
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