Does Batman frustrate you?

[DochaDocha]

Imagine if the mcu had that mentality, there would only be Spider-Man movies and nothing more. It's the mentality WB has had more or less with the DC universe for decades. They were so lazy for decades and that's why the DCU is far behind in the film universe right now. Yes, it's totally the fault of the people in charge because they suck at their jobs.

I guess WB should be given credit for stuff like the Arrowverse and other shows, but sadly for me none of that I find appealing.

I think video games are kind of a weak area for WB, but I would contend that, at least for action games, Batman is by far the best combination of marketability and implementation, thanks to the great work by Rocksteady. I think you could do stuff for other heroes (not Superman, though) that could also make for great games, but it might not be as easy. I always thought Green Lantern would've translated well to something like Scribblenauts and was excited when the DC crossed over with Scribblenauts, but not enough happened for me to care enough to buy a 3DS.

But yeah, the biggest bone to pick for Superman fans is that insistence in inserting Batman really only screwed over one DC movie property, and that's Superman. I didn't care for the Batman references in WW, and I don't recall if there were any in Aquaman, but they were unobtrusive in the former and insignificant (if any) in the latter. It worked for Shazam, though.

[stargazer01]

I guess WB should be given credit for stuff like the Arrowverse and other shows, but sadly for me none of that I find appealing.

I think video games are kind of a weak area for WB, but I would contend that, at least for action games, Batman is by far the best combination of marketability and implementation, thanks to the great work by Rocksteady. I think you could do stuff for other heroes (not Superman, though) that could also make for great games, but it might not be as easy. I always thought Green Lantern would've translated well to something like Scribblenauts and was excited when the DC crossed over with Scribblenauts, but not enough happened for me to care enough to buy a 3DS.

But yeah, the biggest bone to pick for Superman fans is that insistence in inserting Batman really only screwed over one DC movie property, and that's Superman. I didn't care for the Batman references in WW, and I don't recall if there were any in Aquaman, but they were unobtrusive in the former and insignificant (if any) in the latter. It worked for Shazam, though.

I know what you mean, it's why I'm glad BvS wasn't the hit WB thought it'd be.. Sometimes I despise that movie for the damage it did to Supes.

[Gurz]

I know what you mean, it's why I'm glad BvS wasn't the hit WB thought it'd be.. Sometimes I despise that movie for the damage it did to Supes.

hahaha i don't like that film, but i enjoyed how Batman kicked Superman ass.... lol My sister was a big casual Superman fan, and she was shocked when batman beated crap out superman... That was Superman's fall from grace for her. lol

[stargazer01]

hahaha i don't like that film, but i enjoyed how Batman kicked Superman ass.... lol My sister was a big casual Superman fan, and she was shocked when batman beated crap out superman... That was Superman's fall from grace for her. lol

OK. Maybe you can show her the animated Death of Superman movie so she can see a MUCH better version of his fight against Doomsday and how Superman should be portrayed on film.

[Kuwagaton]

I think people have to be honest about not liking Superman so much as the idea of him. If one movie kills it for you, you weren't likely to stick around. I don't remember the weaker three Batman films driving people off.

And BvS not being a true success does hurt Superman even if the issues cited don't usually concern his character. Every one pretty much washed their hands of the DCEU despite the recent two solo films being popular, and that just doesn't do anything to facilitate more Superman even if he's not necessarily inhibited by himself.

[stargazer01]

I think people have to be honest about not liking Superman so much as the idea of him. If one movie kills it for you, you weren't likely to stick around. I don't remember the weaker three Batman films driving people off.

And BvS not being a true success does hurt Superman even if the issues cited don't usually concern his character. Every one pretty much washed their hands of the DCEU despite the recent two solo films being popular, and that just doesn't do anything to facilitate more Superman even if he's not necessarily inhibited by himself.

One of the biggest issues in BvS was Superman's portrayal and story, though. It's my biggest issue in the whole movie. If BvS had been a big hit, then we'd be stuck with Zack Snyder's dark vision (Injustice Superman) and plans for the DC characters, and that would have been awful for me and many it seems.

General audiences clearly weren't enchanted with his vision so they didn't support his movie. The majority spoke.

[Kuwagaton]

They tried super hard to turn it around in JL though. Marvel and Batman have had bad or forgettable films but there's hardly anything like the way people went in on BvS. By the third film it was an uphill battle, I think a little more tolerance would have netted a viewer conscious Man of Steel 2.

And the issues with his character to me bring up several things: changing the world for his own failure in StM, the cowardly and selfish approach in Superman 2, the vague kryptonite influence (?) making him a terrible person in III, and sitting outside the White's house like a mopey stalker. I don't think film Superman was exactly sitting on a pedestal.

[stargazer01]

They tried super hard to turn it around in JL though. Marvel and Batman have had bad or forgettable films but there's hardly anything like the way people went in on BvS. By the third film it was an uphill battle, I think a little more tolerance would have netted a viewer conscious Man of Steel 2.

And the issues with his character to me bring up several things: changing the world for his own failure in StM, the cowardly and selfish approach in Superman 2, the vague kryptonite influence (?) making him a terrible person in III, and sitting outside the White's house like a mopey stalker. I don't think film Superman was exactly sitting on a pedestal.

Superman the Movie is considered a classic and beloved by most who grew up with it. No Superman movie has been perfect (few movies are), but my concern is the present not the past.

I saw BvS and JL each more than 5 times in theaters, so despite the issues I supported them. At the same time I can't blame those who found them very problematic. I still went to see them and liked them to varying degrees (JL is more enjoyable for me because Superman acts like I like). Unfortunately (or not), general audiences didn't love them. All WB cares about is the $$, so I think if those films had done better at the Box office, they would have made more movies with the same cast, but they didn't. not quite.

And I don't think they tried really hard to fix the issues with the JL movie. They did a very rushed job instead of delaying it.

[JAK]

Superman the Movie is considered a classic and beloved by most who grew up with it. No Superman movie has been perfect (few movies are), but my concern is the present not the past.

I saw BvS and JL each more than 5 times in theaters, so despite the issues I supported them. At the same time I can't blame those who found them very problematic. I still went to see them and liked them to varying degrees (JL is more enjoyable for me because Superman acts like I like). Unfortunately (or not), general audiences didn't love them. All WB cares about is the $$, so I think if those films had done better at the Box office, they would have made more movies with the same cast, but they didn't. not quite.

And I don't think they tried really hard to fix the issues with the JL movie. They did a very rushed job instead of delaying it.

I think that *they think* they tried hard to fix the issues, but WB tends to take the wrong lessons from it's mistakes. That said, Superman was a crap-ton-load more enjoyable in JL for me, and that was so refreshing that I tend to give the rest of it a pass.

[stargazer01]

I think that *they think* they tried hard to fix the issues, but WB tends to take the wrong lessons from it's mistakes. That said, Superman was a crap-ton-load more enjoyable in JL for me, and that was so refreshing that I tend to give the rest of it a pass.

If they think they tried *really hard* to fix the issues well that's depressing.. I think they now realized JL was not the movie it should have been had they delayed it to fix the issues properly. It was an uphill battle regardless, but still, an overall better movie would have been better received I'm sure. the fact the reshoots are so noticeable is one big source of angst for the fandom (the Snyder fans, especially/mostly).

The rest of us just wanted a well made movie with epic scenes and great character moments. And a great return of our hero Superman. It wasn't that great, but I'll take it as an apology for BvS. I really enjoyed the main characters and their interactions and banter. It felt like the JL. And I loved seeing Superman smiling and happy to be alive. His return should have been more epic, though. He needed more screen time. But he felt like the Superman I like.

[JAK]

If they think they tried *really hard* to fix the issues well that's depressing.. I think they now realized JL was not the movie it should have been had they delayed it to fix the issues properly. It was an uphill battle regardless, but still, an overall better movie would have been better received I'm sure.

Oh, it's definitely depressing. Their trajectory in general isn't good, save for Batman - and not always even then. I think they felt they were too far along and couldn't wait, but it would have been much better if they had - though infinitely more expensive, which is why they didn't.

The fact the reshoots are so noticeable is one big source of angst for the fandom (the Snyder fans, especially/mostly).

The rest of us just wanted a well made movie with epic scenes and great character moments. And a great return of our hero Superman. It wasn't that great, but I'll take it as an apology for BvS. I really enjoyed the main characters and their interactions and banter. It felt like the JL. And I loved seeing Superman smiling and happy to be alive. His return should have been more epic, though. He needed more screen time. But he felt like the Superman I like.

Funny enough, I wasn't going to bother with JL until I heard that Whedon was taking over. After being burned by MoS and BvS (which I only went to because Terrio was brought on as a writer), I wasn't about to support that crap again (voting with my wallet, as it were). But even though it wasn't a great movie.. I'm glad I saw it in theaters.

And yeah, I agree that he needed more screen time.

[Kuwagaton]

Superman the Movie is considered a classic and beloved by most who grew up with it. No Superman movie has been perfect (few movies are), but my concern is the present not the past.

Those who grew up with it, as you say. That number makes up less and less of the superhero audience as time goes on. I bring up the "past" because you mention general audiences. They have an opinion formed largely from those films whether they like them or not, and I don't think it's a very impressive way to view the character.

Unfortunately (or not), general audiences didn't love them. All WB cares about is the $$, so I think if those films had done better at the Box office, they would have made more movies with the same cast, but they didn't. not quite.

And I don't think they tried really hard to fix the issues with the JL movie. They did a very rushed job instead of delaying it.

Yeah, the cash kinda has to come first if it's your job. As a fan if I had a Superman job, I'd put the money first anyway and hope someone else was doing some good Superman (Rebirth was going on around the films) if my stuff wasn't good lol. But they came away with at least some of us who like the films, their collective efforts. I like BvS most plot wise even if I think Lex is really annoying (though that is intentional) and Killer Ben Affleck is a little ridiculous. Steppenwolf actually managed less personality than even Doomsday, to go along with not being a threat. Aquaman and Cyborg could have been cut Imo, and their parts could have gone to working on Cavill's face more.

The problem with BvS to me is that they didn't get people to love their Batman. Batman is the ultimate wingman. If you get people really stoked on Batman and then lump in Superman I think it goes down smoother. They put too much focus on Batman being in the wrong to keep it clear that Superman is the protagonist.

[stargazer01]

Those who grew up with it, as you say. That number makes up less and less of the superhero audience as time goes on. I bring up the "past" because you mention general audiences. They have an opinion formed largely from those films whether they like them or not, and I don't think it's a very impressive way to view the character.



Yeah, the cash kinda has to come first if it's your job. As a fan if I had a Superman job, I'd put the money first anyway and hope someone else was doing some good Superman (Rebirth was going on around the films) if my stuff wasn't good lol. But they came away with at least some of us who like the films, their collective efforts. I like BvS most plot wise even if I think Lex is really annoying (though that is intentional) and Killer Ben Affleck is a little ridiculous. Steppenwolf actually managed less personality than even Doomsday, to go along with not being a threat. Aquaman and Cyborg could have been cut Imo, and their parts could have gone to working on Cavill's face more.

The problem with BvS to me is that they didn't get people to love their Batman. Batman is the ultimate wingman. If you get people really stoked on Batman and then lump in Superman I think it goes down smoother. They put too much focus on Batman being in the wrong to keep it clear that Superman is the protagonist.

yours is a quite unique perspective on BvS I don't see often. Most people didn't like how brooding Superman was and how easily Batman killed.

People in general just have an idea of who Superman is supposed to be. If they didn't love BvS or Man of Steel or Superman Returns, it's their opinion. There is nothing we fans can do. Most think Superman is a nice and friendly guy who saves people and the world. It's for WB to figure it out how to bring the character to life in a way that most will love and support. I think they also need to remember to make a more entertaining film like some recent DC films. Superman should never be like Batman in the darkness dept, imo.

[Ascended]

And the issues with his character to me bring up several things: changing the world for his own failure in StM, the cowardly and selfish approach in Superman 2, the vague kryptonite influence (?) making him a terrible person in III, and sitting outside the White's house like a mopey stalker. I don't think film Superman was exactly sitting on a pedestal.

Those films are definitely viewed with rose colored glasses. I love the two Donner films, but there are major flaws all over those movies.

This tendency to look at things with nostalgia is why I'm so interested in seeing what opinions on MoS look like in another decade. I've said from the start that history will look kindly on Cav-El's first outing as Clark. Can't wait to find out if I'm right.

BvS is almost certainly doomed though. I love what it tried to do, and in a weird way its beautiful in its failure. But I don't think people will be able to look past the flaws there.

As for Batman being the villain.....it's not a bad idea but it's a huge uphill battle. People love Batman. They know he's a hero. They're not going to be able to divorce themselves from those opinions if you're movie doesn't really sell 100% the idea of him as the bad guy.

[Agent Z]

Most think Superman is a nice and friendly guy who saves people and the world.

Which he was in every DCEU film.

Superman should never be like Batman in the darkness dept, imo.

He wasn't. Unless you think Batman has a patent on not being a joker or having emotional issues.