Does Batman frustrate you?

[Restingvoice]

OP answer

Not really since it's often mitigated by Superman being the best friend who knows Batman best to snark back, make fun of his brooding nature, or pointed out how his ideas are insane, which he does anyway because he's the best brain in the room, basically acting as the wiser, patient, smirking older brother dealing with Bruce's goth drama.

I only read Batman/Superman, Superman/Batman, and Super Sons though, so their dynamic is more equal. I haven't read classic Justice League stories and what I saw from Justice League Unlimited I don't really like since it seems that series is Batman and His Bitches.

[JAK]

Which he was in every DCEU film.

And none moreso than Justice League (when he wasn't beating up the rest of the team, of course).

Superman is a nice and friendly guy who saves people and the world.

I kid with the first line, but Agent Z's not wrong - the trouble (imo) is/was partly the "what," but mostly the "how". I've often said that one could tell most of the MoS and BvS storys' outlines and totally make it a solid Superman movie (with a few changes). But the way it was done and/or executed took even ideas I could get behind and soured my experience. Of course that's not to say it didn't work for everybody - in fact, there are some solid examples of the movies giving people hope who desperately needed it and I'm happy they had that. I'll always insist, though, that there'd be a way to give them what they needed and still give those of us who had a 90% unenjoyable experience what we wanted as well. Not that we'll ever know for sure, but still.

To touch on what Ascended said, I do think MoS will be looked on more fondly over time - but imo it'll be more about the potential that wasn't realized than the merits of the film, itself. It'll be more about where it *could* have gone after MoS's setup. As I've said often, I could be wrong on that - but that's my gut feeling on it.

[stargazer01]

And none moreso than Justice League (when he wasn't beating up the rest of the team, of course).



I kid with the first line, but Agent Z's not wrong - the trouble (imo) is/was partly the "what," but mostly the "how". I've often said that one could tell most of the MoS and BvS storys' outlines and totally make it a solid Superman movie (with a few changes). But the way it was done and/or executed took even ideas I could get behind and soured my experience. Of course that's not to say it didn't work for everybody - in fact, there are some solid examples of the movies giving people hope who desperately needed it and I'm happy they had that. I'll always insist, though, that there'd be a way to give them what they needed and still give those of us who had a 90% unenjoyable experience what we wanted as well. Not that we'll ever know for sure, but still.

To touch on what Ascended said, I do think MoS will be looked on more fondly over time - but imo it'll be more about the potential that wasn't realized than the merits of the film, itself. It'll be more about where it *could* have gone after MoS's setup. As I've said often, I could be wrong on that - but that's my gut feeling on it.

I really like MOS. For me it did many things very well, but the few thing it didn't, it really hurts. It's a very frustrating film because with a few changes it would have been so much more enjoyable and I think successful. Snyder just made a film for himself. He didn't think about most fans Or the character himself. He wasn't the right man to handle the story. His sensibility is not right for Supes.

That said, I think it's a quality Superman movie, it just isn't my fave version of him. It still is my second fave live action Superman film. Superman the Movie is still #1 because it got Superman himself so right. I don't see much fault with that film. For the 70s it was awesome, imo. It doesn't work as well now due to the campy humor, IMO.

OP answer

Not really since it's often mitigated by Superman being the best friend who knows Batman best to snark back, make fun of his brooding nature, or pointed out how his ideas are insane, which he does anyway because he's the best brain in the room, basically acting as the wiser, patient, smirking older brother dealing with Bruce's goth drama.

I only read Batman/Superman, Superman/Batman, and Super Sons though, so their dynamic is more equal. I haven't read classic Justice League stories and what I saw from Justice League Unlimited I don't really like since it seems that series is Batman and His Bitches.

I never felt that. For me Superman was pretty important in that show. But then I was not looking for it like I probably would now.

I don't mind Batman having some importance in the DCU because he has earned it. He needs to stand out somehow, IMO. I just don't like it when he is the best at everything and the leader. He's no leader material to me.

Which he was in every DCEU film.



He wasn't. Unless you think Batman has a patent on not being a joker or having emotional issues.

Yes he was very depressed in BvS.. Where was his optimistic attitude? Nowhere to be seen. Yes I know he has stories like that in the comics, but to have a whole film about that is just not entertaining for a lot of people. If it was, people would be loving it everywhere, but that's not the case..

And I consider Cavill Superman a good guy who wants to help, he just wasn't very friendly (with other people not called Lois Lane) or warm. And I like my Superman warm. Snyder's Superman was kind of friendly in MOS and very friendly in JL, but where in BvS?? I don't remember any scene where he wasn't more or less a distant God. Or brooding and whining.

Reeve Superman showed how friendly and nice he was when he saved that cat, for instance. He had a real smile on his face. That felt really good. I wanted more of that for Henry.

[SiegePerilous02]

I kid with the first line, but Agent Z's not wrong - the trouble (imo) is/was partly the "what," but mostly the "how". I've often said that one could tell most of the MoS and BvS storys' outlines and totally make it a solid Superman movie (with a few changes). But the way it was done and/or executed took even ideas I could get behind and soured my experience. Of course that's not to say it didn't work for everybody - in fact, there are some solid examples of the movies giving people hope who desperately needed it and I'm happy they had that. I'll always insist, though, that there'd be a way to give them what they needed and still give those of us who had a 90% unenjoyable experience what we wanted as well. Not that we'll ever know for sure, but still.

To touch on what Ascended said, I do think MoS will be looked on more fondly over time - but imo it'll be more about the potential that wasn't realized than the merits of the film, itself. It'll be more about where it *could* have gone after MoS's setup. As I've said often, I could be wrong on that - but that's my gut feeling on it.

Yeah, some of the basic outline is fine and some of the execution is good. Not all of it though. Cavill is far from the best or most experienced actor in the world, but I think the best aspects of Superman fits his range and he looks the part. This will go down as one of the most criminally wasted castings in CBM history. Snyder's ambition meanwhile outweighed his talent. I think a lot of the ideas he was kicking around would be interesting for an Elseworld comic to explore, but for a big mainstream production that is expensive as hell and needs to appeal to the widest number of people possible? it is not the time or place to get all art house on us. I blame the studio mostly for heaping all that responsibility on him in the first place.

DCEU Clark was a good person whose heart was in the right place. I don't think that can be disputed. He's too broadly characterized though, he's put on a pedestal without being enagaged with. Especially in the theatrical cut of BvS. And a four film plan to get to a fully formed Superman is fucking stupid. He should be that at the end of the first film at the very latest.

BvS casting a TDKR style Batman as a misguided antagonist is a good idea in theory. Post-Miller Batman ruined the character and if forced to choose, I'd gladly take DCEU Bruce over many post- Crisis Batmen that weren't written by Morrison or Dini. But I'd rather just avoid the whole messy business and get a classical, broody-but-heroic Batman again who I can actually like. The next Batman-Superman team up movie needs to just finally drop this insipid "THEY'RE LIKE CONTRASTING LIGHT AND DARKNESS, LOOK HOW DEEP THIS IS" bullshit that has been plaguing the pair for decades and just make it an awesome buddy movie on a heightened superhero scale.

[JAK]

I really like MOS. For me it did many things very well, but the few thing it didn't, it really hurts. It's a very frustrating film because with a few changes it would have been so much more enjoyable and I think successful. Snyder just made a film for himself. He didn't think about most fans Or the character himself. He wasn't the right man to handle the story. His sensibility is not right for Supes.

That said, I think it's a quality Superman movie, it just isn't my fave version of him. It still is my second fave live action Superman film. Superman the Movie is still #1 because it got Superman himself so right. I don't see much fault with that film. For the 70s it was awesome, imo. It doesn't work as well now due to the campy humor, IMO.

Yes he was very depressed in BvS.. Where was his optimistic attitude? Nowhere to be seen. Yes I know he has stories like that in the comics, but to have a whole film about that is just not entertaining for a lot of people. If it was, people would be loving it everywhere, but that's not the case..

And I consider Cavill Superman a good guy who wants to help, he just wasn't very friendly (with other people not called Lois Lane) or warm. And I like my Superman warm. Snyder's Superman was kind of friendly in MOS and very friendly in JL, but where in BvS?? I don't remember any scene where he wasn't more or less a distant God. Or brooding and whining.

Reeve Superman showed how friendly and nice he was when he saved that cat, for instance. He had a real smile on his face. That felt really good. I wanted more of that for Henry.

That kinda speaks to what I was saying. Can you find enough things in the Snyder films to conclude that he was a good person who wants to help? Absolutely. Were we shown enough of that to fully connect with it? Imo, no (ymmv, of course). And the negative was such a focus (for narrative reasons, but went overboard imo) that it kinda washed some of the necessary positive away.

Yeah, some of the basic outline is fine and some of the execution is good. Not all of it though. Cavill is far from the best or most experienced actor in the world, but I think the best aspects of Superman fits his range and he looks the part. This will go down as one of the most criminally wasted castings in CBM history. Snyder's ambition meanwhile outweighed his talent. I think a lot of the ideas he was kicking around would be interesting for an Elseworld comic to explore, but for a big mainstream production that is expensive as hell and needs to appeal to the widest number of people possible? it is not the time or place to get all art house on us. I blame the studio mostly for heaping all that responsibility on him in the first place.

Oh, it's totally on the studio - they told Snyder what they wanted from him, and he gave it a shot. I place blame on Snyder and Goyer for a lot, but in the end it's WB's screw up. That said, I actually think a lot of the main ideas are even ok in a main universe - just not how they did them. It also didn't need to be as expensive as it was. Yikes. And if WB wasn't so set on skipping their homework to get to "Avengers" money, they'd have told this tale with more movies. About 3 more. lol

And totally agreed on Cavill. He was screwed over almost as badly as Brandon Routh was - and considering both seem to place a lot of importance on Superman, that's just a travesty.

DCEU Clark was a good person whose heart was in the right place. I don't think that can be disputed. He's too broadly characterized though, he's put on a pedestal without being enagaged with. Especially in the theatrical cut of BvS. And a four film plan to get to a fully formed Superman is fucking stupid. He should be that at the end of the first film at the very latest.

It's like the old adage: you don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

BvS casting a TDKR style Batman as a misguided antagonist is a good idea in theory. Post-Miller Batman ruined the character and if forced to choose, I'd gladly take DCEU Bruce over many post- Crisis Batmen that weren't written by Morrison or Dini. But I'd rather just avoid the whole messy business and get a classical, broody-but-heroic Batman again who I can actually like. The next Batman-Superman team up movie needs to just finally drop this insipid "THEY'RE LIKE CONTRASTING LIGHT AND DARKNESS, LOOK HOW DEEP THIS IS" bullshit that has been plaguing the pair for decades and just make it an awesome buddy movie on a heightened superhero scale.

Yeah.. it could have been (and initially was) very compelling. But they could have pulled some "Ocean's Eleven" (the Clooney remake) stuff by having the fight be a stage to get Martha free (maybe he tells Superman this while they're fighting and it swaps from a fight into a "fight" in a total reversal. How amazing would that have been?

[marhawkman]

Editing was a big problem for the theatrical release of BvS because things just didn't flow smoothly and you had to watch it a few times to figure out certain scenes. Obviously it had more issues than that. I particularly didn't like the kidnap/blackmail angle. I liked the idea of the Martha bit, though I do agree it was over-done. It only makes sense if Batman was already thinking about Martha Wayne for some reason. Yes, Batman is a lunatic, but does he really think about his dead mother non-stop?

[Lokimaru]

I really like MOS. For me it did many things very well, but the few thing it didn't, it really hurts. It's a very frustrating film because with a few changes it would have been so much more enjoyable and I think successful. Snyder just made a film for himself. He didn't think about most fans Or the character himself. He wasn't the right man to handle the story. His sensibility is not right for Supes.

That said, I think it's a quality Superman movie, it just isn't my fave version of him. It still is my second fave live action Superman film. Superman the Movie is still #1 because it got Superman himself so right. I don't see much fault with that film. For the 70s it was awesome, imo. It doesn't work as well now due to the campy humor, IMO.




I never felt that. For me Superman was pretty important in that show. But then I was not looking for it like I probably would now.

I don't mind Batman having some importance in the DCU because he has earned it. He needs to stand out somehow, IMO. I just don't like it when he is the best at everything and the leader. He's no leader material to me.




Yes he was very depressed in BvS.. Where was his optimistic attitude? Nowhere to be seen. Yes I know he has stories like that in the comics, but to have a whole film about that is just not entertaining for a lot of people. If it was, people would be loving it everywhere, but that's not the case..

And I consider Cavill Superman a good guy who wants to help, he just wasn't very friendly (with other people not called Lois Lane) or warm. And I like my Superman warm. Snyder's Superman was kind of friendly in MOS and very friendly in JL, but where in BvS?? I don't remember any scene where he wasn't more or less a distant God. Or brooding and whining.

Reeve Superman showed how friendly and nice he was when he saved that cat, for instance. He had a real smile on his face. That felt really good. I wanted more of that for Henry.

Your not really putting yourself in his shoes dude. How would you feel if you've tried you hardest to always do the right thing, to live up to the ideals your parents instilled in you only to have the world turn on you for something you didn't even do? He had a guy trolling him behind the scenes, He had a Guy in Gotham getting Praised by the establishment for being the very thing they accuse him of being whilst the little guy lives in fear. His Boss doesn't take him seriously, His Girl friend loves jumping into the deep end Arrggg. Who wouldn't be a little bummed out with all that going on? His Cat out of the Tree moment was him save that girl from the Fire. He's smiling as he hand her off to her parents I think but his joy dies as the people treat him like an Angel descending from on high which is Not what he wants. Contrast that to Batman's ceiling Scurry and you'll see that whilst Batman wants to be treated like an Otherworldly being, Superman does not.

[DochaDocha]

I kind of feel as though no matter how much the story tried to portray Batman as the guy in the wrong, it still has that Walter/Skyler White dynamic in which the audience is compelled to root for the wrong person. And that's where I blame WB for messing up Superman. Because at the end of the day, the audience will root for the "cool" guy whom the story follows more closely.

Argh

[marhawkman]

I kind of feel as though no matter how much the story tried to portray Batman as the guy in the wrong, it still has that Walter/Skyler White dynamic in which the audience is compelled to root for the wrong person. And that's where I blame WB for messing up Superman. Because at the end of the day, the audience will root for the "cool" guy whom the story follows more closely.

Argh

In my case I just sat back to wait to see him get smacked. I watch Batman do stuff and think "supervillain rampage"

Another thing with Batman is how his "no killing" rule sometimes seems to only extend to HUMANS. Like when Poison Ivy makes pod people who are actual people Batman murders them all.

[Vordan]

Your not really putting yourself in his shoes dude. How would you feel if you've tried you hardest to always do the right thing, to live up to the ideals your parents instilled in you only to have the world turn on you for something you didn't even do? He had a guy trolling him behind the scenes, He had a Guy in Gotham getting Praised by the establishment for being the very thing they accuse him of being whilst the little guy lives in fear. His Boss doesn't take him seriously, His Girl friend loves jumping into the deep end Arrggg. Who wouldn't be a little bummed out with all that going on? His Cat out of the Tree moment was him save that girl from the Fire. He's smiling as he hand her off to her parents I think but his joy dies as the people treat him like an Angel descending from on high which is Not what he wants. Contrast that to Batman's ceiling Scurry and you'll see that whilst Batman wants to be treated like an Otherworldly being, Superman does not.

Here’s the thing: Clark was only a hero when he wasn’t listening to the Kents, because the Kents are really shitty people in Snyder’s film. Their moral lesson can be summed up as “Look out for number 1”. “Put yourself first and the world second”. And you know what? I could get behind that interpretation if ended with Clark rejecting their upbringing and choosing to step into the light because it’s what he wants. But that’s not what happens. Clark hides because that’s what his Earth dad tells him to do and then he comes out because it’s what his space dad tells him to do.

Dispenser of Truth has a pretty great summary of DCEU Clark on his Tumblr:

suffering the slings and arrows of a world set against him, sacrificing over and over again for a people who don’t deserve him, who never can and never will…going to his shitty Superman job to deal with a bunch of nervous ingrates that demand a perfect performance out of him, because he guesses it’s the right thing to do and he needs to keep his house in order so he can just go back home to his girlfriend…the romanticized image of modern suffering, soulful in his misery, epic in his pain, living in a broken world he can never fix or even much improve beyond doing his part to keep it from completely falling in on itself, living for the snatches of happiness in-between the dreary, soul-weighing moral compromise and lack of appreciation of his day-to-day life”.

DCEU Supes is a guy who can’t make the world better or even meaningfully save it. The absolute best he can do is put it in a bottle, to keep the godawful status quo going. Forget joining him in the sun, DCEU Superman can’t even get people to join him under a sputtering light bulb. And that’s a valid Elseworld take but as the center of your big cinematic universe to get people to care about people other than Batman, good God does it suck. Doesn’t help that Snyder seems to want us to view this guy like he’s also the Reeves Superman when nothing he does is inspirational at all. This Superman bends to the moral arc of the broken world he lives in. He kills Zod twice, making an utter sham of the defenders and Snyder who want to claim that DCEU Superman “saves” Batman. How does he save Batman? His final action is a validation of Batffleck’s methods: using lethal force to kill the monster. Using his trauma as a weapon. Snyder Batman mowed down people with a gun, the symbol of everything he’s supposed to hate. Snyder Superman stabs Zodsday with Kryptonite, showing that us no better way at all. Sometimes people gotta die and Snyderman can’t rise above that.

I kind of feel as though no matter how much the story tried to portray Batman as the guy in the wrong, it still has that Walter/Skyler White dynamic in which the audience is compelled to root for the wrong person. And that's where I blame WB for messing up Superman. Because at the end of the day, the audience will root for the "cool" guy whom the story follows more closely.

Argh

Doesn’t help that Superman is a plot device more than a character in BvS or that Snyder’s brilliant plan was to have Supes be the ONLY hero to fall to Darkseid because his gf got fridged thus proving Batman absolutely right about everything in BvS. Superman is weak and it’s safer to kill him then trust him because his dumbass hick Pa Kent gave him absolutely garbage advice. “Make one person your world” what kind of godawful advice is that?

[JAK]

Here’s the thing: Clark was only a hero when he wasn’t listening to the Kents, because the Kents are really shitty people in Snyder’s film. Their moral lesson can be summed up as “Look out for number 1”. “Put yourself first and the world second”. And you know what? I could get behind that interpretation if ended with Clark rejecting their upbringing and choosing to step into the light because it’s what he wants. But that’s not what happens. Clark hides because that’s what his Earth dad tells him to do and then he comes out because it’s what his space dad tells him to do.

Well, kinda. He comes out of hiding because otherwise Zod will destroy the planet. But that was my big problem with the movie - as much action as their is, for much of it he's technically a passive protagonist.. and that just doesn't scream "Superman" (or in this case "guy who will become Superman") to me. (ymmv of course, as I've often said on this subject)

[Kuwagaton]

It's kind of easy to get hung up on differences but those things are what make an adaptation. Missing an aspect in other media doesn't invalidate a take on Superman, Hercules, or any other prolific fictional characters.

To bring this back around, that "passive" Superman is par for the course. The ideas of Rachel scolding Bruce and Falcone's humiliation leading the stuck up young man to Batman flies in the face of the purity that has worked for the character since we first saw that young child make his vow in the candlelight. As another example, I had a friend become a Spider-Man fan for life and his gateway was in relating to how Tobey felt about MJ before his powers. Really that has nothing to do with the development through Lee and Ditko. People just don't care because they like it.

[Vordan]

It's kind of easy to get hung up on differences but those things are what make an adaptation. Missing an aspect in other media doesn't invalidate a take on Superman, Hercules, or any other prolific fictional characters.

To bring this back around, that "passive" Superman is par for the course. The ideas of Rachel scolding Bruce and Falcone's humiliation leading the stuck up young man to Batman flies in the face of the purity that has worked for the character since we first saw that young child make his vow in the candlelight. As another example, I had a friend become a Spider-Man fan for life and his gateway was in relating to how Tobey felt about MJ before his powers. Really that has nothing to do with the development through Lee and Ditko. People just don't care because they like it.

To be fair, Shannon’s Zod is the best incarnation of Zod we’ve ever had, I like Adams Lois and don’t mind her knowing his secret, and I was hesitantly accepting of Kal killing Zod because I thought it would lead somewhere in the sequel. But then BvS came out and I hated that movie so much it soured me on MOS as well. Now I can’t look at it without seeing all the flaws screaming at me.

[Ascended]

Another thing with Batman is how his "no killing" rule sometimes seems to only extend to HUMANS. Like when Poison Ivy makes pod people who are actual people Batman murders them all.

That extends to most heroes who still have a no-kill rule too.

Clark, who has a higher body count than most of his peers if you actually look at it, can kill Imperiex and Brainiac 13 and Darkseid (and he's killed all of them) and no one cares. He can literally melt scores of Doomsday clones to ash (which he's also done) and everyone is cool with it. He snaps Zod's neck? People lose their gods damned minds. Because Zod looks human while the rest looked like monsters.

[marhawkman]

That extends to most heroes who still have a no-kill rule too.

Clark, who has a higher body count than most of his peers if you actually look at it, can kill Imperiex and Brainiac 13 and Darkseid (and he's killed all of them) and no one cares. He can literally melt scores of Doomsday clones to ash (which he's also done) and everyone is cool with it. He snaps Zod's neck? People lose their gods damned minds. Because Zod looks human while the rest looked like monsters.

Oh yeah, like that one Justice League animated movie where the bad guys are White Martians. When they want to, the Whites can perfectly imitate Humans. But in their natural forms they look like white goo with arms and legs, so the heroes utterly massacre every single one of them. In many cases it's a straight up war crime since some of the Whites aren't in positions to fight back. It's the equivalent of machine gunning people for wearing enemy uniforms.

I picked the Poison Ivy example because the pod people even looked like people. Batman's like "It's a plant pretending to be Human, kill it with fire!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsyEznrvuF8
He make an effort to save Ivy from the sinking ship but his wife? NOPE!