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  1. #31
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    How many people know it's Batman day? Whenever I turn on the radio it's like national twin day or peach day or volleyball day or something.

    stargazer, Supergirl the tv show is different than regular D.C. print or video to be fair. With those... well, I can't say it's exclusive. For me Bruce is the five of his top ten and then we get to Damian or Dick or whatever. Unfortunately and more unfortunately for people like me, we're constantly told that oh Dick is a better hero or athlete, Tim is a better detective, Alfred does a lot of the work, etc. Batgirl is a college student who gets up and performs so close to the way he does. He only stalemates guys like Bronze Tiger outside of writer emphasized bias (where then he um, beats the Hulk). And then it gets worse aside from Flash because Wonder Woman and others don't even get to debate being the absolute best at something. Superman is at least the second most privileged character in the company. If Superman is more popular then I guess you wouldn't have them face each other but if they do face each other, Batman gets the win because the other way around is boring. You probably don't care how many ants an elephant can step on in passing, but an ant beating an elephant?

    If anything I'm just jealous the way his creators could gel with him. Or greedy, because I think there are Superman equivalents (I love Ordway as much as Aparo) but like... why couldn't we have had more than three Breyfogle stories?

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  2. #32
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    If Superman is more popular then I guess you wouldn't have them face each other but if they do face each other, Batman gets the win because the other way around is boring. You probably don't care how many ants an elephant can step on in passing, but an ant beating an elephant?
    Hmm... *puts smar@$$ hat on*

    Query posit #1: How many times does the ant seemingly beat the elephant before the ant becomes the elephant and the elephant becomes the ant? We're constantly told that the elephant is too much for the ant, but we rarely see it shake out that way.. so when does the perception flip?

    Query posit #2: As a fan of the elephant, can't say I'd find it boring in the least to watch the ant go "squish" every now and again. Just sayin.
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  3. #33
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Hell no, I’m a huge Batman fan, almost as much as Superman. He’s an awesome character and both characters benefit from the World’s Finest dynamic, be it going for frienemy or the old fashion bromance. In fact I think Superman fans have a lot to learn from Batman fans. Frankly Superman fan base can be too damn sensitive. Well maybe that’s too harsh, maybe just the things that bother a lot of vocal fans just doesn’t bother me at all. So Batman (really Green Arrow) kinda-sorta-not really beat up Clark in an Elseworlds. Who cares? It wasn’t even done in a stupid way, he used Kryptonite, that’s supposed to defeat him. You think Batman fans through a fit whenever he gets beat up by a villain like Bane or whatever? Whenever Superman is vilified like in Injustice, it’s blasphemy and Batwank. But when the same thing happens to Bruce like in Metal, like the BWL, it’s somehow also Batwank.

  4. #34
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Hmm... *puts smar@$$ hat on*

    Query posit #1: How many times does the ant seemingly beat the elephant before the ant becomes the elephant and the elephant becomes the ant? We're constantly told that the elephant is too much for the ant, but we rarely see it shake out that way.. so when does the perception flip?
    Logic doesn't really allow it to flip. The elephant maintains the size and shape of an elephant. If anything the anticipation gets set because surely, the ant is due for the L. We will always know that the elephant can and likely should win, so it's important that the writers are creative with the circumstances for the less likely. Is Superman depowered, did he just inhale kryptonite, and so on give you a boring outcome. At that point you're asking if an ant can topple a downed elephant. But the elephant vs ant in general is decent if extremely redundant by now.

    Query posit #2: As a fan of the elephant, can't say I'd find it boring in the least to watch the ant go "squish" every now and again. Just sayin.
    I like seeing Superman overcome trials in general from a disadvantage. Batman is always "supposed to be" at a disadvantage. I've seen him wiped out by bums so I largely agree with it. But for all he overcomes, when Hitch or Rucka make him unsuccessful vs Superman, I don't see a lot of satisfaction from Superman readers and much less from less interested parties. And I think we all winced when Hal Jordan finally got his "one punch" out of like five times losing to Batman, even on top of Bruce getting even later.
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  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Query posit #2: As a fan of the elephant, can't say I'd find it boring in the least to watch the ant go "squish" every now and again. Just sayin.
    A thought struck me earlier.

    Go back and look at those scans from Loeb's Superman/Batman, where Kingdom Superman slaps Bruce around like a bitch. And then there's....whatever issue/s where Clark, under Max Lord's influence, nearly killed Bruce. And whatever other examples anyone can think of, because those are the only ones coming to me right now but I definitely think it's happened more than that.

    Is it possible that we see Clark beat Bruce more than we realize, but it doesn't really register because it's not a big epic brawl? How often do we see Clark put Bruce on his ass with a single half-hearted slap? Not a ton, but does it happen more than I think it does? And does it count as a "fight?" Maybe their win records are closer than we think?

    I mean, I'm sure Bruce is still winning overall, because its DC. But maybe Clark's showings aren't as poor as perceived?
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  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    A thought struck me earlier.

    Go back and look at those scans from Loeb's Superman/Batman, where Kingdom Superman slaps Bruce around like a bitch. And then there's....whatever issue/s where Clark, under Max Lord's influence, nearly killed Bruce. And whatever other examples anyone can think of, because those are the only ones coming to me right now but I definitely think it's happened more than that.

    Is it possible that we see Clark beat Bruce more than we realize, but it doesn't really register because it's not a big epic brawl? How often do we see Clark put Bruce on his ass with a single half-hearted slap? Not a ton, but does it happen more than I think it does? And does it count as a "fight?" Maybe their win records are closer than we think?

    I mean, I'm sure Bruce is still winning overall, because its DC. But maybe Clark's showings aren't as poor as perceived?
    It may just be that Batman's victories are in more prolific comics. I know diehards remember it, but that Loeb arc in Superman/batman doesn't compare to TDKR and Hush in notoriety*. There is Sacrifice, but I think that is tainted by Superman fans being stuck with another "he gets zapped with mind control, er mah gerd he's so dangerous when he's unchecked" plot.

    I'd really just rather put this whole tedious rivalry behind us. Their shared title should just be them doing nothing but shooting the shit together, occasionally with Dick and/or Diana joining them. I don't even need superhero plots because I get that elsewhere. I'd buy every issue.

    *Alex Ross's Justice has that awesome "mirror image" spread of the one in Hush where Superman punches out a mind controlled Batman. It's wonderfully cathartic, and then they go back to being buds after. In fact, I think the only time Batman acts like an insufferable prick in that story is when he's being mind controlled, so it's deliberately ooc. it's great. I'd love a sequel series, we are in need of it currently.

  7. #37
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Logic doesn't really allow it to flip. The elephant maintains the size and shape of an elephant. If anything the anticipation gets set because surely, the ant is due for the L. We will always know that the elephant can and likely should win, so it's important that the writers are creative with the circumstances for the less likely. Is Superman depowered, did he just inhale kryptonite, and so on give you a boring outcome. At that point you're asking if an ant can topple a downed elephant. But the elephant vs ant in general is decent if extremely redundant by now.
    Oh, it was redundant a looong time ago (I know I'm preaching to the choir on that, I'm just stating). I was actually joking with both of these, but my point was more that it's been so skewed now that DC doesn't bill the A v E fight like "A is screwed" so much as "A v E is a clash of titans" kinda thing. If that were true, then the ant isn't really an ant at that point. And I'm not sure about anticipation: I'm more surprised when DC actually gives him the L, as I generally have absolutely no anticipation that it'll happen. So, while the sizes don't change, when we generally assume that the ant will have plot armor and the elephant won't... are the stakes really that high?

    I like seeing Superman overcome trials in general from a disadvantage. Batman is always "supposed to be" at a disadvantage. I've seen him wiped out by bums so I largely agree with it. But for all he overcomes, when Hitch or Rucka make him unsuccessful vs Superman, I don't see a lot of satisfaction from Superman readers and much less from less interested parties. And I think we all winced when Hal Jordan finally got his "one punch" out of like five times losing to Batman, even on top of Bruce getting even later.
    I like seeing Superman overcome trials as well, and Batman too (usually), in all honesty. But I'm not so sure audiences don't like seeing Batman taken down a peg once in a while - the general reaction I've seen to what Superman did to Batman in "Justice League" says a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    A thought struck me earlier.

    Go back and look at those scans from Loeb's Superman/Batman, where Kingdom Superman slaps Bruce around like a bitch. And then there's....whatever issue/s where Clark, under Max Lord's influence, nearly killed Bruce. And whatever other examples anyone can think of, because those are the only ones coming to me right now but I definitely think it's happened more than that.

    Is it possible that we see Clark beat Bruce more than we realize, but it doesn't really register because it's not a big epic brawl? How often do we see Clark put Bruce on his ass with a single half-hearted slap? Not a ton, but does it happen more than I think it does? And does it count as a "fight?" Maybe their win records are closer than we think?

    I mean, I'm sure Bruce is still winning overall, because its DC. But maybe Clark's showings aren't as poor as perceived?
    The best one I can think of is in "Superman/Batman," when Batman got powers and just went crazy, and Superman had to stop him. And the Kingdom Superman moment is good, too. There have been a few like that. But in instances like Max Lord, it's exposition or backstory, and generally doesn't get the "cool moment" that sticks in your head like the reverse moments do - not that DC will let us forget them.

    Generally, when both are in their right mind, it should be Superman ftw with that aforementioned half-hearted slap. And when they aren't, it should be by a razor's hair because mind control is being fought against, etc (like "Hush"). But it's happened enough the other way that "what we know should happen" isn't "what we know will happen," even if the % is better than we think. And even though I was joking, I do think that's a narrative problem for stories where they're at odds. I have no interest because it's tired and stupid, but also because I feel I could make easy money knowing how it ends. There's a point where that's no longer interesting from a narrative perspective. Man has been biting dog for a mile and a half now, and it's boring. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It may just be that Batman's victories are in more prolific comics. I know diehards remember it, but that Loeb arc in Superman/batman doesn't compare to TDKR and Hush in notoriety*
    That's a great point, and I'll make one adjustment: they're not just in more prolific comics - they're also the moments that DC shoves down our throats over....and over... and over. It's not "wow, he pulled it off" so much as "look at this powerful moment we've shown you 1mil times where the character who's responsible for us having a company gets kicked in the head by this other character who owes his existence to him, and nevermind that the story doesn't end there".

    I'd really just rather put this whole tedious rivalry behind us. Their shared title should just be them doing nothing but shooting the shit together, occasionally with Dick and/or Diana joining them. I don't even need superhero plots because I get that elsewhere. I'd buy every issue.
    Agreed. Thankfully, most iterations of it are dead - just waiting for Injustice to be over, and then maybe the horse will have rotted enough for DC finally get a whiff and quit beating it.

    *Alex Ross's Justice has that awesome "mirror image" spread of the one in Hush where Superman punches out a mind controlled Batman. It's wonderfully cathartic, and then they go back to being buds after. In fact, I think the only time Batman acts like an insufferable prick in that story is when he's being mind controlled, so it's deliberately ooc. it's great. I'd love a sequel series, we are in need of it currently.
    Oh, I forgot about that! And yeah, that would be very cool to get a sequel to that.
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  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Generally, when both are in their right mind, it should be Superman ftw with that aforementioned half-hearted slap. And when they aren't, it should be by a razor's hair because mind control is being fought against, etc (like "Hush"). But it's happened enough the other way that "what we know should happen" isn't "what we know will happen," even if the % is better than we think. And even though I was joking, I do think that's a narrative problem for stories where they're at odds. I have no interest because it's tired and stupid, but also because I feel I could make easy money knowing how it ends. There's a point where that's no longer interesting from a narrative perspective. Man has been biting dog for a mile and a half now, and it's boring. lol
    Oh, it's beyond over-done and stupid. It never should have happened outside of DKR, honestly. Though I do really like how Hush handled it; that was probably their best fight in regular continuity.

    It's a bad situation where no matter how the fight goes, Batman can't lose and Clark can't win. If Batman wins, he's the mortal guy who defeated a god. If he loses, well he's a mortal guy fighting a god so living through it and not dying is a victory. If Clark wins, he's a god who slapped a mortal; it's not a fair fight and Clark's a dick for punching down. If Clark loses, he's a god who lost to a dude in a bat costume who's only super power is "money."
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  9. #39
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, it's beyond over-done and stupid. It never should have happened outside of DKR, honestly. Though I do really like how Hush handled it; that was probably their best fight in regular continuity.

    It's a bad situation where no matter how the fight goes, Batman can't lose and Clark can't win. If Batman wins, he's the mortal guy who defeated a god. If he loses, well he's a mortal guy fighting a god so living through it and not dying is a victory. If Clark wins, he's a god who slapped a mortal; it's not a fair fight and Clark's a dick for punching down. If Clark loses, he's a god who lost to a dude in a bat costume who's only super power is "money."
    Lex Luthor's superpower is that he's a smart mortal guy with $$$. So basically Superman's greatest enemy is more or less evil Batman. Like it or not, the existence of kryptonite as a prominent plot device does quite a bit to separate Superman from the Wonder Women and Thors of the comic book world. Really any asshole with a green alien rock is a least a meager threat to the man of steel, wheras there's only so much the Bruce Waynes or Lex Luthors would be able to do if they were on Diana or Thor's shitlist.
    As long as it makes sense in story. I don't have a problem with it. To me, the way Superman was defeated in Hush and in TDKR made sense. So I don't have a problem with it.
    Catwoman one shoting the Flashes on the other hand is a bit much for my suspension of disbelief. So that's more screwy for me.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 09-21-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  10. #40

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    I got something to say. No matter who wins in a superman vs batman fight.the Supersons rule And superdads drool!!!

    Just kidding.

  11. #41
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, it's beyond over-done and stupid. It never should have happened outside of DKR, honestly. Though I do really like how Hush handled it; that was probably their best fight in regular continuity.
    Absolutely - and I'm fine with "Hush" as well, because that's mind control, and went to lengths to state that if Clark wasn't fighting it, Bruce would be screwed. So it was less "Bruce is a bad@$$" and more "they won by working together" kinda thing.

    It's a bad situation where no matter how the fight goes, Batman can't lose and Clark can't win. If Batman wins, he's the mortal guy who defeated a god. If he loses, well he's a mortal guy fighting a god so living through it and not dying is a victory. If Clark wins, he's a god who slapped a mortal; it's not a fair fight and Clark's a dick for punching down. If Clark loses, he's a god who lost to a dude in a bat costume who's only super power is "money."
    That depends on the perspective. I agree fully on the Batman half, and I'm fine with all of that. On the Superman half - assuming we're not talking mind control here or an evil Superman - he shouldn't punch down, he should simply incapacitate before Bruce can blink if it comes to that. When a person runs into a wall and "loses," it's not that the wall is a dick.. it's a wall. It's not moving. If I had my preference, that's the way I'd like it to be treated.

    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Lex Luthor's superpower is that he's a smart guy with $$$. So basically Superman's greatest enemy is more or less evil Batman. Like it or not, the existence of kryptonite as a prominent plot device does quite a bit to separate Superman from the Wonder Women and Thors of the comic book world. Really any asshole with a green alien rock is a least a meager threat to the man of steel, wheras there's only so much the Bruce Waynes or Lex Luthors would be able to do if they were on Diana or Thor's shitlist.
    To a degree, sure. But the way Lex and Bruce use what they have is different. Lex spends a considerably longer amount of time getting his schemes together, and usually it doesn't involve direct conflict with Superman.

    As long as it makes sense in story. I don't have a problem with it. To me, the way Superman was defeated in Hush and in TDKR made sense. So I don't have a problem with it.
    Catwoman one shoting the Flashes on the other hand is a bit much for my suspension of disbelief. So that's more screwy for me.
    Hush, I'll give you, and that was a team effort. I'd like TDKR to stop being billed as a win for Bruce. His seemingly lifeless body was laying in Clark's arms after a crap ton of prep time, nukes and Kryptonite. That was Bruce running into the wall (to reference what I said above), essentially. That he lived wasn't a win, it was a lucky break (regardless of how much of it was part of a plan).
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  12. #42
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I got something to say. No matter who wins in a superman vs batman fight.the Supersons rule And superdads drool!!!

    Just kidding.
    LOL! And I've always found it interesting that both of their kids have the same face on that cover.. lol
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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    LOL! And I've always found it interesting that both of their kids have the same face on that cover.. lol

    I mean, batman and superman have similar face.

  14. #44
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post

    I mean, batman and superman have similar face.
    True. And I love that episode.
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  15. #45
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    This is what happens when Bruce punches Clark in his big fat face
    20190922112823.jpg
    20190922113017.jpg
    Last edited by Desmark; 09-21-2019 at 11:04 PM.

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