Does Batman frustrate you?

[Vordan]

You mean like in HIC?
Sadly @Gurz is right. Real World popularity has a lot to do with it. Not to mention that a lot of writers are Batman fanboys. I was a sit down with some Batman writers at Con from a couple of years and all the writers there [Miller, Morrison, Synder, Murphy and one other] said that the thing about Batman is that he never loses.
When that is the mindset [which is reflected in majority of batman fans] it becomes the normal no matter how little sense it makes against super powered opponents.

I don't blame Batman I blame writers. I blame DC for their Batman heavy investment model. They rely too much on batman to the detriment of of their other IP's. This is way you get such nonsense as WW, Comics most iconic female character being used a a plot device to service batman's romance at a time when her profile was at it's highest following a successful solo movie

But they’ll say Superman is boring because he’s invincible except for Kryptonite... which isn’t even true! Just goes to show that was always a strawman argument lol.

[Desmark]

This thread seems like a sequel to Batman vs Superman.
20190923234634.jpg

[Kuwagaton]

Those annual retellings were always my favorite Batman and Superman team ups.

for all the comparisons to similar characters and ideas I think starting a discussion around a direct counterpart and their shared world makes it more fun. And despite BvS being such a big thing it's not like most in the fact that it's not just stats or feats. I have fun with the narrative philosophy of it.

I think it's a more than fair trade, honestly.

But then, I dislike the notion that Clark is "invulnerable" as opposed to just "really, really damn tough." And I don't think most of the comics support the idea of him being truly invulnerable either, outside of a few certain eras. He got hurt by the nuke in DKR, Russian Zod broke his.....arm? Jaw? I forget. Clark gets hurt, and has gotten hurt through most of his history. Even Conduit messed him up pretty decently, and the number of times he's nearly been beaten to death are nearly uncountable. I'd just like to see that made a little more plain.

For me, it's not about the shock value of "Oh noes! The invincible Superman got a black eye!" it's about the fact that Clark is fighting people in his weight class (or in a class above him) and should therefore suffer injuries. It's just showing that he had a tough fight. Not shock value, just a dude who got into a rough dust up. What happens when the unstoppable object hits the immovable object? They both get broken bones.

I mean, Batman, Invincible, Thor, tons of characters who are both on par with Clark and weaker than him walk away from fights with visible injuries. All the time. It's not going to hurt Clark if he does either. I mean, it's going to hurt him, but it's not gonna hurt him, yknow?

It's a cool and surprisingly rare power given that everyone rips off the strength and many writers forget the speed. Morrison did the best Superman who lacked invulnerability because he established everything about the story he did, but otherwise...

DKR Superman got Millered, and to prove he didn't hate the character he Millered everyone else in ASBAR. A nuke couldn't touch pre crisis and just knocked post crisis out for an hour, with the pre death implication that his tolerance was rising to heavier nukes. The broken jaw I didn't like because I didn't like Russian Zod, but aside from the Doomsday fights that sort of thing never happened and so it was pretty well sold. And I know those specific things aren't really your point but I just want to say that Superman should beat what you throw at him after dealing with the meaning behind it, whatever it may be. You know there's debates over whether or not Thor and WW can withstand bullets? Aquaman sure can't. Thor grew a beard to hide some scars once. There are those characters, and then there's Superman. You can't even nerf him because he gets back to it eventually. He can lose no matter what, there's always some Zaar out there, but this is the one character where we don't have to pretend he'll ever stay defeated. Kinda Batman too but like... Batman villains will go recruit from the Home Depot parking lot and have the sufficient numbers to have him at mercy. It's different no matter how much willpower Bruce has.

One thing I did like is the idea that his physiology makes the same damage different to him. Like we saw Superman impaled under Pak and Austen but he was sort of cool about it. I wouldn't like much impaling if I don't even like broken bones and bruises but I think being Kryptonian should be an immense privilege. He's one of the main fictional characters to have what we now see as a trope, where the mysterious dad of the hero is like the best ever at something and therefore that gift is theirs. When you define what it means to your character's personality and contrast what another character would do with the same gift and all that it works.

[manwhohaseverything]

This thread seems like a sequel to Batman vs Superman.
20190923234634.jpg

Make love not war. #superbat

[Desmark]

Make love not war. #superbat

Lol true in a way.

[DochaDocha]

For a character whose trademark is invulnerability, it's kind of funny to think Superman's one of the few highly popular fictional characters to die via blunt force trauma. Most other guys have to be shot, stabbed, poisoned, drowned, choked, neck snapped... In comics, usually the trope is that if a blow doesn't pierce your skin, you can shake it off, e.g. Iron Man, Luthor, DKR Batman, etc.

[Gurz]

Make love not war. #superbat

This is the truth behind Batman vs Superman. They both frustrated by their secret homosexual feelings towards each other. That's why Batman and Superman fight. both of them have a sex change operation and start a lesbian relationship in the end... :P

[Kuwagaton]

For a character whose trademark is invulnerability, it's kind of funny to think Superman's one of the few highly popular fictional characters to die via blunt force trauma. Most other guys have to be shot, stabbed, poisoned, drowned, choked, neck snapped... In comics, usually the trope is that if a blow doesn't pierce your skin, you can shake it off, e.g. Iron Man, Luthor, DKR Batman, etc.

It was something I disliked for years, as blunt force to me is just a humiliating way to go. But I like that for all we call Superman a brawler, his response to the unstoppable force was "nuh uh" and actively achieved the hardest double ko in recorded history. We like to think these characters would go until they no longer can and he is the one who actually walked that walk.

It sort of makes up for CoIE to me, where his ultimate resolve never showed up.

[dietrich]

As Ive said, the common person adores Superman. You'll get a few jokes about the underwear or how he's so unbeatable he's boring, etc etc., but end of the day? Clark moves more t-shirts and merchandise than almost anyone, including the big name movie stars. That's how popular Superman and his legend are; it takes the combined effort of all the Avengers to sell more stuff than him.

It's not that Superman has become unpopular; it's that DC has ****ed up for thirty years and have proven to the direct market that his books aren't worth reading because of DC's incompetence. The people who don't follow the direct market? They still love Superman and will flock to support him....until low quality drives them off. But they show up, every time, hoping to get what they and the character still deserve.

Can I get a source for this because that doesn't sound true.

I mean Batman media franchise has grossed an estimated £24 billion to Superman's £11.1


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...dia_franchises

[Ascended]

Can I get a source for this because that doesn't sound true.

I mean Batman media franchise has grossed an estimated £24 billion to Superman's £11.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...dia_franchises

The info is a couple years old. I got it from.....crap, comichron maybe? Was doing a research paper on business, needed some sales figures for that particular year, but erased the bookmark once the semester was finished. Sorry.

But according to that data Batman does outsell Clark. I don't recall the exact figures but at #1 was Spidey with just over a billion in merch sales (for that year), Batman at #2 with something like 9 million, the Avengers as a collective whole at #3, and Clark at #4.

I believe in the year I was doing the paper, none of them had movies come out (though I'm sure an individual Avenger might have, but no "Avengers" movie). The data noted that the Avengers outsell Clark as a collective whole; he moves more merch than the individual characters but the group outsells him.

Which still seems pretty gods damn impressive to me, given that Clark hasn't had a widely successful film, cartoon, video game, or tv show in forever, while the other guys all have, and still are, enjoying successful large media adaptations.

[dietrich]

Well-selling? Sure. Popular? Maybe. But even if the rest of that is true, he owes his very existence to Superman.

Making Batman's position as DC's and comic's No 1 even more impressive.

I don't like when other characters are made dumb to prop Batman or any character for that matter. I don't mind Batman beating Superman so long as it's not all the time and Superman isn't made to look too bad. I also don't mind when other characters even Hench men beat batman. All I care about is how entertaining the story and fight is.

Batman doesn't frustrate me DC and writers and fanboys who put so much emphasis on who won frustrate me

[dietrich]

The info is a couple years old. I got it from.....crap, comichron maybe? Was doing a research paper on business, needed some sales figures for that particular year, but erased the bookmark once the semester was finished. Sorry.

But according to that data Batman does outsell Clark. I don't recall the exact figures but at #1 was Spidey with just over a billion in merch sales (for that year), Batman at #2 with something like 9 million, the Avengers as a collective whole at #3, and Clark at #4.

I believe in the year I was doing the paper, none of them had movies come out (though I'm sure an individual Avenger might have, but no "Avengers" movie). The data noted that the Avengers outsell Clark as a collective whole; he moves more merch than the individual characters but the group outsells him.

Which still seems pretty gods damn impressive to me, given that Clark hasn't had a widely successful film, cartoon, video game, or tv show in forever, while the other guys all have, and still are, enjoying successful large media adaptations.

Wow Spiderman taking the World's Finest and everyone else to school.

I wish we had more regular info on annual merch sales cos I'm really curious to see just how much Harley Quinn bring's in. I have a feeling she moves a ton of merch. I want to know the type of sales that's earned her that 4th pillar tag.

[Ascended]

Wow Spiderman taking the World's Finest and everyone else to school.

I wish we had more regular info on annual merch sales cos I'm really curious to see just how much Harley Quinn bring's in. I have a feeling she moves a ton of merch. I want to know the type of sales that's earned her that 4th pillar tag.

Oh, same here! She seems to move ssssssooooooooooooooo much merchandise I'd almost expect her to out-sell everybody.

What I really want to know is whether legacies and spinoff characters' sales count towards their parent franchise. Did people really buy 900 million in t-shirts with Bat logos on them, or did that number include Harley too? If so, did that include stuff like DC Super Hero Girls as well? I want to look at their accounting so badly!

[JAK]

Making Batman's position as DC's and comic's No 1 even more impressive.

Not necessarily. Batman rode the 80's/90's grunge-esque comics wav and DC never stopped promoting that aspect. What's impressive is how well Superman still does despite being mismanaged beyond all belief.

I don't like when other characters are made dumb to prop Batman or any character for that matter. I don't mind Batman beating Superman so long as it's not all the time and Superman isn't made to look too bad. I also don't mind when other characters even Hench men beat batman. All I care about is how entertaining the story and fight is.

Batman doesn't frustrate me DC and writers and fanboys who put so much emphasis on who won frustrate me

Every once in a while is fine, I agree. It's just waay past that at this point. An entertaining fight can be fun no matter what, but it stops being entertaining when Superman is made to look like an idiot who forgot he has Super-speed.

[JAK]

Oh, same here! She seems to move ssssssooooooooooooooo much merchandise I'd almost expect her to out-sell everybody.

What I really want to know is whether legacies and spinoff characters' sales count towards their parent franchise. Did people really buy 900 million in t-shirts with Bat logos on them, or did that number include Harley too? If so, did that include stuff like DC Super Hero Girls as well? I want to look at their accounting so badly!

imo, you don't need to look at their accounting. You need to be in charge of it. Jus' sayin'.