Does Batman frustrate you?

[JAK]

Hey, I never said his list of skills were believable, you're right in the real world no human could possibly learn, let alone master, even half of his skills. I'm simply saying to a casual fan, however unrealistic it may be, there's a satisfying in universe reason for why he has mastered so many things. He has a varied skill set because of hard work, not to say Superman doesn't work hard either btw, he obviously does. But if Superman never lifted a finger from the moment he was born he'd still have all his powers. You can't say the same thing about Batman.

But he'd have those powers the same way a "normal" person who's never been in training has the ability to fight... in other words, "not much." Several stories have shown that experience and honing his skills puts him at an advantage vs other Kryptonians (like the Phantom Zone villains). Just because you have the possible ability doesn't mean you know how to use it or know that it exists, let alone use them at the speeds that he can. Granted, writers don't always emphasize that, but there is a clear precedent for it. The New Krypton storyline actually had him training fellow Kryptonians/Kandorians because of his advanced knowledge and self-training over the years.

[Kuwagaton]

What we can take away is that it's the same thing. People love Batman because he's just a man and works so hard, but then they don't think he should be destroyed by Captain America or something like that. Maybe it's a more positive spin but it's still the conflicting perception Superman encounters.

But then how else will they fight so we can devalue Superman?

Between the massive arsenals of merch rattled off in these 30 years with critically and commercially acclaimed adaptations, I can't say most people really care. See the times Marvel tried to use X-Men to put over less successful comic teams. Even with the major box office and rising merch sales, having the Avengers humiliate the X-Men didn't mean anything to comic success.

[kingaliencracker]

I love Batman, so no he does not frustrate me.

Having said that, I think through no real fault of their own (it's mostly fan-driven), DC is completely dependent on Batman, which I think hinders them creatively in terms of their shared universe.

[Korath]

When he's used like he was on today's Action Comics, Batman in a Superman story doesn't bother me too much (if at all). I'm a little more doubtful about the Batman/Superman issue 2, for instance, where there was one element (see below) which really bothered me.

spoilers:

It was Bruce breaking out of the Kryptonian healing vat as if it was nothing, destroying Kelex and then being ingrate to Superman. I mean, I know he's strong, but a glass healing vat should be hard to break already, and this one is a lot more advanced !

end of spoilers

[Desmark]

When he's used like he was on today's Action Comics, Batman in a Superman story doesn't bother me too much (if at all). I'm a little more doubtful about the Batman/Superman issue 2, for instance, where there was one element (see below) which really bothered me.

spoilers:

It was Bruce breaking out of the Kryptonian healing vat as if it was nothing, destroying Kelex and then being ingrate to Superman. I mean, I know he's strong, but a glass healing vat should be hard to break already, and this one is a lot more advanced !

end of spoilers

He had already suffered a humiliating loss against Shazam so they had to compensate for that by the showing.

[Korath]

He had already suffered a humiliating loss against Shazam so they had to compensate for that by the showing.

Meh. It's not as if he could do much in such a fight anyway, him being defeated shouldn't be held against him. That's why the following pages were stupid.

[The World]

spoilers:

It was Bruce breaking out of the Kryptonian healing vat as if it was nothing, destroying Kelex and then being ingrate to Superman. I mean, I know he's strong, but a glass healing vat should be hard to break already, and this one is a lot more advanced !

end of spoilers

It's the darnedest thing because a few days ago I reread Action Comics 775 for the first time in forever and it's such a little temper tantrum comic. Completely hollow and bitter but the funniest thing about it is that from the onset the premise of the story is already undermined by the fact that there was already a dark hero who had already shamed Superman numerous times and the public adorned him with praise for it: Batman. So in the most impotent last ditch thing Joe Kelly can think of he refocuses his efforts towards a much more manageble target The Elite(The Authority). It's hilarious that the ultimate Superman vs Dark Heroes story line DC doesn't even have the stones to put up a facsimile of their golden boy but rather Ellis and Hitches faux Justice League. Supes can't fight the big dog so he goes after the manageable underlings.

But then it's the same thing with Doomsday Clock, DC attempt to say that all the darkness in modern comics is caused by Allan Moore. I've seen that image of Batman dogging Superman in DKR/Hush a billion times more than I've seen ANYTHING from Watchmen so give me a break, Bruce's whole shtick in the modern world is that he's nastier and meaner than his compatriots and yet he's capable of beating anyone and Superman has been implicit in backing that up by fearing and revering him so much and playing into the aura of this dark, angry avenger that can beat anyone because his mom and dad died. Doomsday clock SHOULD be a story about Superman realizing he's been a god awful "Symbol of Hope" and that for once in the modern era he's going to grow a spine and stand up to the bully in the room.

[manwhohaseverything]

When he's used like he was on today's Action Comics, Batman in a Superman story doesn't bother me too much (if at all). I'm a little more doubtful about the Batman/Superman issue 2, for instance, where there was one element (see below) which really bothered me.

spoilers:

It was Bruce breaking out of the Kryptonian healing vat as if it was nothing, destroying Kelex and then being ingrate to Superman. I mean, I know he's strong, but a glass healing vat should be hard to break already, and this one is a lot more advanced !

end of spoilers

It was nice seeing superdad again. Clark helping out naomi was the best thing i have read ever since bendis took over. I was finally enjoying superman as a character again.

[Kuwagaton]

It's the darnedest thing because a few days ago I reread Action Comics 775 for the first time in forever and it's such a little temper tantrum comic. Completely hollow and bitter but the funniest thing about it is that from the onset the premise of the story is already undermined by the fact that there was already a dark hero who had already shamed Superman numerous times and the public adorned him with praise for it: Batman. So in the most impotent last ditch thing Joe Kelly can think of he refocuses his efforts towards a much more manageble target The Elite(The Authority). It's hilarious that the ultimate Superman vs Dark Heroes story line DC doesn't even have the stones to put up a facsimile of their golden boy but rather Ellis and Hitches faux Justice League. Supes can't fight the big dog so he goes after the manageable underlings.

I dunno if it's a misconception still but Kelly used the Elite intentionally. For the irony of people complaining about the way he used the Elite, the point was that it wasn't the actual Authority so you can't hold them as a direct takedown. Stand in, absolutely.

But not for Batman. Not sure how you got that it was a vent of the elseworld DKR or the Hush story that didn't exist. Maybe I'm missing an example, but to bring up Batman in relation to 775... Kelly was JLA writer and in the era when Batman and Joker showed up frequently


Five issues before the one you mention, Superman thwarts a godlike Joker and when Batman is broken by the ordeal, Superman takes his pain and suffering upon himself. Telling Lois the next day that it was merely a rough night. It's like Luffy and Zoro switched places haha.

[marhawkman]

Hey, I never said his list of skills were believable, you're right in the real world no human could possibly learn, let alone master, even half of his skills. I'm simply saying to a casual fan, however unrealistic it may be, there's a satisfying in universe reason for why he has mastered so many things. He has a varied skill set because of hard work, not to say Superman doesn't work hard either btw, he obviously does. But if Superman never lifted a finger from the moment he was born he'd still have all his powers. You can't say the same thing about Batman.

Really? he was born rich. But in the case of Superman there are some things he does with his powers that are skills and not actually innate abilities.

[The World]

I dunno if it's a misconception still but Kelly used the Elite intentionally. For the irony of people complaining about the way he used the Elite, the point was that it wasn't the actual Authority so you can't hold them as a direct takedown. Stand in, absolutely.

But not for Batman. Not sure how you got that it was a vent of the elseworld DKR or the Hush story that didn't exist. Maybe I'm missing an example, but to bring up Batman in relation to 775... Kelly was JLA writer and in the era when Batman and Joker showed up frequently


Five issues before the one you mention, Superman thwarts a godlike Joker and when Batman is broken by the ordeal, Superman takes his pain and suffering upon himself. Telling Lois the next day that it was merely a rough night. It's like Luffy and Zoro switched places haha.

Emperor Joker storyline? That's a fair point admittedly.

As for the rest I mean in the larger context of this Dark Heroes vs Light Heroes thing. Like consider they way DC has fashioned Superman and Batman as "polar opposites" in the Post-Crisis world. Everything Batman did or stood for Superman was suppose to be opposed to it for the sake of playing up the drama of the contrast. Its not and never was any deeper than that, it's the Dark Hero vs Light Hero thing at it's most basic. Clark's faster and stronger than Bruce is so Bruce has to make up for that by being underhanded, ruthless, etc while Clark was too nice. Bruce was dark because his origin was dark and tragic, Clark was nice because he origin had been power washed of anything that might resemble Bruce's. Basic level kid stuff writing but played seriously by the writers. I

Much like Waid with Kingdom Come, Kelly seems mad at the rise of the dark hero and wants to assert that Clark is still "relevant". But instead of actually examining Superman and seeing where things went wrong they create strawmen villains so that they 1. Can continue to write Superman on autopilot 2. Can avoid having to answer the question of what effect Batman has had on the general Light Heroes vs Dark Heroes question because it's an actually tough question. You can't have this Dark Hero/Light Hero discussion and decide you're not going to include your alpha dark hero.

Basically what I'm saying is characters like Magog or The Elite are created so he can fight safe battles against Strawman villains where Clark holds all the cards. When he actually has to put his money where his mouth is and prove that his way isn't weaker than the opposite his track record is terrible. It's like studying all day and night and consistently getting D's. Before and after AC775 Batman has handed Superman some pretty embarrassing losses and Williamson's Batman/Superman story is looking to be another one.

[Kuwagaton]

Hyperbole aside what you describe doesn't even cover half of "everything." Loeb and (longtime super writer) Kesel pretty much owned the light vs dark as a springboard that largely only existed after 2003. Before that you have some tension in the backwoods monster story from Byrne and then DK over Metropolis, but those issues are resolved between them by the end of the stories. The major storylines like Panic, Zero Hour, and Eclipso have them as allies. Bruce reaches out to Clark when the JL needs a leader, after trying it for himself. Bruce even bought Clark the apartment he and Lois lived in as a wedding gift, for another larger storyline. Kesel did the second World's Finest where they grow across years and Final Night where they have conflict on Hal. Dominus pits Superman against the entire planet and he manages to make a stand against the whole JL. JLA as a title was probably the roughest for the pair, as Superman is beaten by the martians and rescued by Batman, later followed by Tower of Babel. Those are the "Superman guys" Morrison and Waid.

As far as Kelly and his Elite go, it shows that Kelly likes them as he doesn't use them for a one off but transitions them into their own series. He is like others in digging the cynical, chain smoking Brit archetype so he does keep Black as an enemy. And Black pretty much ends up as the most enduring villain created after Mongul.

Flipping through the new comic now. Looks a little better given the convo when Bruce recovers but I'll actually read later. Didn't like the writing last month either.

[marhawkman]

Basically what I'm saying is characters like Magog or The Elite are created so he can fight safe battles against Strawman villains where Clark holds all the cards. When he actually has to put his money where his mouth is and prove that his way isn't weaker than the opposite his track record is terrible. It's like studying all day and night and consistently getting D's. Before and after AC775 Batman has handed Superman some pretty embarrassing losses and Williamson's Batman/Superman story is looking to be another one.

One thing people often forget is that being a hero is about accomplishing goals. If 20 crooks break into a bank vault to steal something and the hero beats 19 of them senseless, it's still a loss if the 20th crook gets away with the loot. That's the sort of situation you run into with the Elite. Their goal isn't to KILL Superman. So whether he can beat them in a stand up fight is irrelevant.

[Agent Z]

One thing people often forget is that being a hero is about accomplishing goals. If 20 crooks break into a bank vault to steal something and the hero beats 19 of them senseless, it's still a loss if the 20th crook gets away with the loot. That's the sort of situation you run into with the Elite. Their goal isn't to KILL Superman. So whether he can beat them in a stand up fight is irrelevant.

I think the problem is that the story doesn't actually disprove the Elite's philosophy as flawed because it never goes into the consequences of their actions. We don't see the Elite killing innocent people who were framed for crimes, we don't see countries devolving into chaos because the Elite killed their leaders, even them trying to kill Superman lacks any weight because the story makes it clear that Superman was never in any true danger from them.

Warren Ellis' Black Summer is a much better deconstruction of superheroes killing. Namely because it is focused on the consequences of such actions as opposed to trying to make one particular brand of hero look good.

[stargazer01]

I can’t believe that we’ve got people here still saying that Batman is the only sellable IP after WW saved the DCEU and Aquaman made a billion. Seriously pisses me off. Are people just stupid? Why are they so quick to just say the IPs must be crap and not assign any blame to the people put in charge of making the movies?

Imagine if the mcu had that mentality, there would only be Spider-Man movies and nothing more. It's the mentality WB has had more or less with the DC universe for decades. They were so lazy for decades and that's why the DCU is far behind in the film universe right now. Yes, it's totally the fault of the people in charge because they suck at their jobs.