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  1. #1
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    Default Confusing line. Age of Ultron. Is Reed Richards Christian? Jewish? Probably not.

    Just checking.

    During Age of Ultron there's a flashback where Hank Pym, Tony Stark and Reed Richards are working on Vision while discussing Ultron. They discuss regrets. Hank Pym mentions he fantasizes about going back in time and stopping himself from making Ultron.

    Eventually the dialog gets around to Reed Richards saying "Yeah but then you'd need to go back in time and kill Hitler. Then you might as well go back to the Garden of Eden and smack that apple out of Eve's hand. Where does it end?"

    Now he's probably just looking for a convenient go to example for the first human mistake that affected human history. But I'm surprised that New York based progressives writing a genius scientist character would have him give a biblical example alongside a historical example as though they were equivalent. I would assume that they would assume that all smart scientists are dogmatically atheist (though I know scientists who aren't in real life). Is Reed supposed to be Christian or is that just an odd choice for a character we can assume is atheist like all scientist characters written by progressives?
    Last edited by KingDragonlord; 09-24-2019 at 05:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I think Reed is more on the agnostic side of things. The man has met God-like beings and God himself back in Waid's arc. Atheism makes most sense for a scientist in our world but in Marvel where all these insane things happen, things are very different. In my opinion it makes most sense for Reed to be agnostic as outright denial after all he's seen would be stupid and ignorant, that's not Reed.
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  3. #3
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Just checking.

    During Age of Ultron there's a flashback where Hank Pym, Tony Stark and Reed Richards are working on Vision while discussing Ultron. They discuss regrets. Hank Pym mentions he fantasizes about going back in time and stopping himself from making Ultron.

    Eventually the dialog gets around to Reed Richards saying "Yeah but then you'd need to go back in time and kill Hitlet. Then you might as well go back to the Garden of Eden and smack that apple out of Eve's hand. Where does it end?"

    Now he's probably just looking for a convenient go to example for the first human mistake that affected human history. But I'm surprised that New York based progressives writing a genius scientist character would have him give a biblical example alongside a historical example as though they were equivalent. I would assume that they would assume that all smart scientists are dogmatically atheist (though I know scientists who aren't in real life). Is Reed supposed to be Christian or is that just an odd choice for a character we can assume is atheist like all scientist characters written by progressives?
    I'd put it in the allegorical example category. There are many Christian scientists and generally they do not take the Bible and its history literally. Even if Reed is athiest, the use of Eden and the apple is an way to express the first sin even if it's not a literal belief.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    A lot of mentions of God is just cultural osmosis, and doesn't actually indicate belief. Christianity is so prevalent in the US that even atheists find themselves saying things like 'oh my god' or whatever, while having no belief that any of it is real. Even if you try to be aware of it and stop yourself, it will slip out sometimes, it's just a cultural thing, kind of like picking up slang from people around you.

    Though as mentioned above full on atheism is tough in the MU because you have literal gods walking around, people who have seen heaven and hell and other afterlives, magic exists, and some magic calls upon the power of gods or at the very least god like entities. Atheists would be very rare in such a circumstance because most atheists disbelieve because there is no evidence in our world, they won't believe based on blind faith or what some bronze age book says. If given actual tangible proof they would change their minds. (but it would have to be very convincing) But in the MU, evidence for the supernatural is abundant. At most you could have them be some kind of deist that believes in the existence of gods, but don't think they have any real influence over the world, or that they are worthy of worship simply because they exist.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-24-2019 at 05:35 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    A lot of mentions of God is just cultural osmosis, and doesn't actually indicate belief. Christianity is so prevalent in the US that even atheists find themselves saying things like 'oh my god' or whatever, while having no belief that any of it is real. Even if you try to be aware of it and stop yourself, it will slip out sometimes, it's just a cultural thing, kind of like picking up slang from people around you.

    Though as mentioned above full on atheism is tough in the MU because you have literal gods walking around, people who have seen heaven and hell and other afterlives, magic exists, and some magic calls upon the power of gods or at the very least god like entities. Atheists would be very rare in such a circumstance because most atheists disbelieve because there is no evidence in our world, they won't believe based on blind faith or what some bronze age book says. If given actual tangible proof they would change their minds. (but it would have to be very convincing) But in the MU, evidence for the supernatural is abundant. At most you could have them be some kind of deist that believes in the existence of gods, but don't think they have any real influence over the world, or that they are worthy of worship simply because they exist.
    I figure the rates of atheism would be similar to real life. Its really mostly superheroes that are encountering literal gods and god-like beings whereas most everybody else is kept in the dark.

    And when the average Marvel citizen sees something, all they know is yet another supervillain they saw on TV is making grandiose claims of being a god. How are they supposed to know which ones are actual gods? Do the superheroes tell them? Do they trust the superheroes? And supposedly one of the superheroes claims to be the actual Thor. Who knows how many people believe him (I think the Ultimate universe handled that really well).

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Is Reed supposed to be Christian or is that just an odd choice for a character we can assume is atheist like all scientist characters written by progressives?
    While there's nothing baring a practicing Judeo-Christian from being a scientist, I think I agree with the others that Richards is just using it the Biblical reference as an analogy. It happens. In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, the Genesis Device was named after the the first book of the Bible despite being the product of a largely secular society. Even in the movie itself, when expressing his fears over the misuse of the device, Dr. McCoy, very much an atheist, references the Bible to make a point: "According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now, watch out: here comes Genesis, we'll do it for you in six minutes!"

    (In fact, for a franchise that is very secular humanistic in spirit and created by a very anti-religious man, Star Trek has a surprisingly large number of references to the Judeo-Christian Bible, even beyond phrases that have passed into common use and even some neutral and positive references.)
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  8. #8
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    Disappointing. I thought Matt Murdock was a devout Catholic. They have devout members of other religions but they can't keep the one devout member of Catholicism?

  9. #9
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    It's one of those weird things in the Marvel Universe that you really need to accept. Since all mythologies exist in this syncretistic universe can get weird. Reed can meet God one day and deny him the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Disappointing. I thought Matt Murdock was a devout Catholic. They have devout members of other religions but they can't keep the one devout member of Catholicism?
    Nightcrawler anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Atheism makes most sense for a scientist in our world but in Marvel where all these insane things happen, things are very different.
    Molecular biology adjunct here and well, science and religion are more complicated than simply being mutually exclusive to each other, especially if you bring in a religious philosopher and an atheist philosopher into the same room.


    Honestly, Reed's references to Biblical texts can be chalked up to being submerged in Western culture. If you lived in Japan, you would reference Shintoism and their mythology, especially since the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu according to such mythology.

    The gods of Earth probably fight over who created it all things considered.
    Last edited by U.N. Owen; 09-24-2019 at 07:40 PM.

  10. #10
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    The answer is: Bendis.

    That is all.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Raffi Ol D'Arcy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I'd put it in the allegorical example category. There are many Christian scientists and generally they do not take the Bible and its history literally. Even if Reed is athiest, the use of Eden and the apple is an way to express the first sin even if it's not a literal belief.
    There are also many Christian scientists who do believe in Adam and Eve and are creationists. Also, it wasn't an apple. All we know is that they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No mention of an apple. Just saying

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Disappointing. I thought Matt Murdock was a devout Catholic. They have devout members of other religions but they can't keep the one devout member of Catholicism?
    He was never "devout" but yes, he was faithful in being called a Catholic and stayed a Catholic but was never 100% committed. This conversation with Reed is from the current Chip Zdarsky run and Matt has gone through some very heavy traumatic experiences of late - almost dying (end of Charles Soule's run) and also killing a petty thief in a failed robbery. This latter situation had him in denial for a long time. I get the feeling that Zdarsky is channeling a lot of his own experiences about God in the Daredevil run.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    The oddest part is that Reed takes Eve eating the fruit of knowledge as an example of bad things one would want to prevent.
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  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugiwara View Post
    The oddest part is that Reed takes Eve eating the fruit of knowledge as an example of bad things one would want to prevent.
    Seeing at it was step one to the Fall...
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Seeing at it was step one to the Fall...
    Exactly. This wasn't just knowledge. They had knowledge. This was knowledge of good and evil.

    Makes me wonder though. What would God have done if one of them had eaten it and the other hadn't?

    Or where would we be today if we'd never eaten it? Would we still be frolicking in a Garden or would we have developed a technological society? Technology is born of need and we wouldn't have needs in the Garden.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Exactly. This wasn't just knowledge. They had knowledge. This was knowledge of good and evil.

    Makes me wonder though. What would God have done if one of them had eaten it and the other hadn't?

    Or where would we be today if we'd never eaten it? Would we still be frolicking in a Garden or would we have developed a technological society? Technology is born of need and we wouldn't have needs in the Garden.
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