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  1. #1
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Default The Curious Case of “Chaos War: X-Men”

    We’ve almost reached the end of the beginning of the Hickman era. It’s an exciting time, full of twists, resurrections, revelations, and retcons. The big one, of course, came back in House of X #2, with the revelation of Moira MacTaggert’s true status as a reincarnating mutant. As part of that issue, we learned that Moira had never truly died of the legacy virus, instead faking her death with a “Shi’ar Golem”.

    This, among other details from the series, throws a particular series into question: Chaos War: X-Men. This two-issue series was released in 2011 as part of the Chaos War event, which saw a number of resurrections, most temporary. In the X-Men tie in, John Proudstar, Banshee, Moira, three Madrox dupes, Sophie Cuckoo, and Esme Cuckoo found themselves resurrected in the ruins of the X-Mansion, and fought to stop the Carrion Crow from destroying the elemental spirits of life.

    This is operating off the presumption that Life 10 is the Earth-616 we know.

    Do Shi’ar Golems Dream of Mutant Sheep?



    Let’s start with the big one: Moira MacTaggert comes back to life in Chaos War: X-Men #1, before dying again in #2, this time at the hands of the Carrion Crow.

    We now know that Moira never died. Her death was faked, credited to a “Shi’ar golem”.

    The complication is obvious. The implications, unclear. The simplest explanation is that Shi’ar golems have souls. This is not entirely unprecedented – Chaos War elsewhere confirmed that the Vision has a soul, and could be brought back from the afterlife in the same fashion as any flesh and blood creature. We don’t know how Shi’ar golems are made, what they’re fashioned from, how Moira got one. But it would seem that they must be more advanced than simple automatons.

    This is mere inference, not certainty. It could be that there’s a more complicated, less intuitive explanation to be had.

    Moira also gets possessed by the soul of Destiny, described as a “merging of souls”, for what it’s worth. This isn’t really a troublesome point, but it does read differently given the scene between the two of them in House of X #2.

    Prime Memories



    The second question is this: Golem-Moira clearly has Moira X’s memories. But would she have had all of them? What makes this question relevant is that Esme Cuckoo decides to merge the “prime memories” of all present, rather than waste time on introductions.

    There’s no implication, of course, that any of the others learned anything dramatic from Golem-Moira’s memories. As we see in the House and Powers of X series, Professor X is fully capable of seeing the memory of all of Moira X’s lives. Was Golem-Moira, then, an incomplete copy, possessing only the memories of Life 10? Or does Moira, and thus Golem-Moira, have a stronger control of what can be read from her mind than has been let on?

    Golem-Moira says at one point “Charles and I worked together for what seemed like a lifetime”. Reads in a new light now, potentially.

    Cerebro Response Time



    If you ignore the Madrox dupes, the only character from this series yet to return to life is John Proudstar. In House of X #5, we learn that Cerebro has been storing the minds of all mutants on a regular basis for as long as it’s been active. The Proudstar is one of those mutants is certain, and his return seems inevitable. The question, though, is when Cerebro’s last backup of John is from.

    We know neither how long it takes Cerebro to find a new mutant mind, nor how long the process of backing it up takes. Would John Proudstar’s stay on Earth in Chaos War: X-Men has been long enough to be detected and backed up by Cerebro? Or would Cerebro’s last backup of John be from the time of his first death?

    When John Proudstar is resurrected, will he remember the last words he shared with Sophie Cuckoo?

    (This is to say nothing of the question raised by Banshee and the two Cuckoos themselves; each came back to life in a way before the Krakoa era. Do they remember Chaos War? We’ve no clear idea either way. Banshee hasn’t really been seen in a state of clear mind since his resurrection. The Cuckoos seemed back to feuding in their X-23 appearances, but now seem to have returned to the understanding they reached in Chaos War.)

  2. #2

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    Does X-Men: The End occur in current continuity or in an alternate universe. It's an alternate universe, especially at this point because so many events have changed that the outcomes that would lead to X-Men: The End are gone.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    We’ve almost reached the end of the beginning of the Hickman era. It’s an exciting time, full of twists, resurrections, revelations, and retcons. The big one, of course, came back in House of X #2, with the revelation of Moira MacTaggert’s true status as a reincarnating mutant. As part of that issue, we learned that Moira had never truly died of the legacy virus, instead faking her death with a “Shi’ar Golem”.

    This, among other details from the series, throws a particular series into question: Chaos War: X-Men. This two-issue series was released in 2011 as part of the Chaos War event, which saw a number of resurrections, most temporary. In the X-Men tie in, John Proudstar, Banshee, Moira, three Madrox dupes, Sophie Cuckoo, and Esme Cuckoo found themselves resurrected in the ruins of the X-Mansion, and fought to stop the Carrion Crow from destroying the elemental spirits of life.

    This is operating off the presumption that Life 10 is the Earth-616 we know.

    Do Shi’ar Golems Dream of Mutant Sheep?



    Let’s start with the big one: Moira MacTaggert comes back to life in Chaos War: X-Men #1, before dying again in #2, this time at the hands of the Carrion Crow.

    We now know that Moira never died. Her death was faked, credited to a “Shi’ar golem”.

    The complication is obvious. The implications, unclear. The simplest explanation is that Shi’ar golems have souls. This is not entirely unprecedented – Chaos War elsewhere confirmed that the Vision has a soul, and could be brought back from the afterlife in the same fashion as any flesh and blood creature. We don’t know how Shi’ar golems are made, what they’re fashioned from, how Moira got one. But it would seem that they must be more advanced than simple automatons.

    This is mere inference, not certainty. It could be that there’s a more complicated, less intuitive explanation to be had.

    Moira also gets possessed by the soul of Destiny, described as a “merging of souls”, for what it’s worth. This isn’t really a troublesome point, but it does read differently given the scene between the two of them in House of X #2.

    Prime Memories



    The second question is this: Golem-Moira clearly has Moira X’s memories. But would she have had all of them? What makes this question relevant is that Esme Cuckoo decides to merge the “prime memories” of all present, rather than waste time on introductions.

    There’s no implication, of course, that any of the others learned anything dramatic from Golem-Moira’s memories. As we see in the House and Powers of X series, Professor X is fully capable of seeing the memory of all of Moira X’s lives. Was Golem-Moira, then, an incomplete copy, possessing only the memories of Life 10? Or does Moira, and thus Golem-Moira, have a stronger control of what can be read from her mind than has been let on?

    Golem-Moira says at one point “Charles and I worked together for what seemed like a lifetime”. Reads in a new light now, potentially.

    Cerebro Response Time



    If you ignore the Madrox dupes, the only character from this series yet to return to life is John Proudstar. In House of X #5, we learn that Cerebro has been storing the minds of all mutants on a regular basis for as long as it’s been active. The Proudstar is one of those mutants is certain, and his return seems inevitable. The question, though, is when Cerebro’s last backup of John is from.

    We know neither how long it takes Cerebro to find a new mutant mind, nor how long the process of backing it up takes. Would John Proudstar’s stay on Earth in Chaos War: X-Men has been long enough to be detected and backed up by Cerebro? Or would Cerebro’s last backup of John be from the time of his first death?

    When John Proudstar is resurrected, will he remember the last words he shared with Sophie Cuckoo?

    (This is to say nothing of the question raised by Banshee and the two Cuckoos themselves; each came back to life in a way before the Krakoa era. Do they remember Chaos War? We’ve no clear idea either way. Banshee hasn’t really been seen in a state of clear mind since his resurrection. The Cuckoos seemed back to feuding in their X-23 appearances, but now seem to have returned to the understanding they reached in Chaos War.)
    But is John PRoudstar even on the table? Remember one of the sinisters stole his x-gene. That might create a problem.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  4. #4
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But is John PRoudstar even on the table? Remember one of the sinisters stole his x-gene. That might create a problem.
    That's not really how the X-Gene works, though. Sinister added John's X-Gene to his genome, yeah, but that doesn't mean John doesn't have it anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Does X-Men: The End occur in current continuity or in an alternate universe. It's an alternate universe, especially at this point because so many events have changed that the outcomes that would lead to X-Men: The End are gone.
    All the the End series were never in continuity. Nothing to do with Chaos War, though.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    That's not really how the X-Gene works, though. Sinister added John's X-Gene to his genome, yeah, but that doesn't mean John doesn't have it anymore.



    All the the End series were never in continuity. Nothing to do with Chaos War, though.
    It just seems to me for him to take the x-gene from a mutant so obscure and not even that powerful as John Proudstar that hickman may have had these questions in mind. I could be completely off but he just seems like the weirdest mutant to take an x-gene from. But it can easily also be explained away as that story happened in another life so it all really comes down to if the story has been acknowledge. I would think the sinister/x-gene connection would say so but then that would mean the writer would know someone may use this story as a question and planned for it.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  6. #6
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    It just seems to me for him to take the x-gene from a mutant so obscure and not even that powerful as John Proudstar that hickman may have had these questions in mind. I could be completely off but he just seems like the weirdest mutant to take an x-gene from. But it can easily also be explained away as that story happened in another life so it all really comes down to if the story has been acknowledge. I would think the sinister/x-gene connection would say so but then that would mean the writer would know someone may use this story as a question and planned for it.
    Oh, yeah, it's a super random choice for Sinister. Proudstar's power set is very basic, standard issue stuff. You'd think he'd have gone for something more interesting. But there's nothing about that to imply obstacles to resurrection.

    I don't think any stories are going to be consigned to previous lives of Moira. Until there's evidence to the contrary, I think there's no reason to think that Chaos War: X-Men didn't happen in some fashion, beyond the simple fact of Moira's presence being... complicating.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Oh, yeah, it's a super random choice for Sinister. Proudstar's power set is very basic, standard issue stuff. You'd think he'd have gone for something more interesting. But there's nothing about that to imply obstacles to resurrection.

    I don't think any stories are going to be consigned to previous lives of Moira. Until there's evidence to the contrary, I think there's no reason to think that Chaos War: X-Men didn't happen in some fashion, beyond the simple fact of Moira's presence being... complicating.
    I think your right but the biggest thing with Moira for me personally is. What happened at the end of life 5 and what happened in life 6. I think those who say life 6 s x1000 is right but i don't know if those saying it doesn't say Moira died at the end of life 5 means nothing. Especially when life 5 is the only life of hers that shows two end points. That could tie into chaos world, it could be the moira golem was created to contain an extra essence of moira that was floating around due to coma/ massacre. But then thats all just speculating. IT's hard to really say until the last life reveal.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Oh, yeah, it's a super random choice for Sinister. Proudstar's power set is very basic, standard issue stuff. You'd think he'd have gone for something more interesting. But there's nothing about that to imply obstacles to resurrection.

    I don't think any stories are going to be consigned to previous lives of Moira. Until there's evidence to the contrary, I think there's no reason to think that Chaos War: X-Men didn't happen in some fashion, beyond the simple fact of Moira's presence being... complicating.
    Wasn't he wolverine lite? Tracking senses physical enhancements and regen...doesn't seem like a bad choice...not counting omegas i would say the only better would be M
    In the real world i would be BOTH pro registration and Pro mutant rights. Xavier and Trask were both right.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartofTheStoriesWeTell View Post
    Wasn't he wolverine lite? Tracking senses physical enhancements and regen...doesn't seem like a bad choice...not counting omegas i would say the only better would be M
    Exactly why not take the better X-gene. John seems so random so random in fact the book actually alludes to it being so. Makes me feel it means something deep. lol
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  10. #10
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    I don't think Proudstar has tracking abilities. That's Warpath's thing. Apparently he does have notably increased lung capacity though.

  11. #11
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Hickman gonna be like "Since Moira's lives take place in 616 simultaneously, the Moira from Chaos War: X-Men was actually one of Moira's past lives" and then leave us to figure out how she has memories of Life 10.
    "Cable was right!"

  12. #12
    Incredible Member autbey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I don't think Proudstar has tracking abilities. That's Warpath's thing. Apparently he does have notably increased lung capacity though.
    He really didn't have a chance to explore his powers though. Even Warpath didn't start using his powers differently until late X-Force.

  13. #13
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    Assuming what we're seeing in House of X is indeed Earth-616, it's more likely that Chaos War: X-Men is, at this point, retconned away by default. As is the portrayal of Moira's death in 2001. And anything else that contradicts the history Hickman has laid out.

    Or, Moira X isn't really Moira at all. Or, this is all an alternate timeline, and 616 is Moira XI's life.

    We shall see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Exactly why not take the better X-gene. John seems so random so random in fact the book actually alludes to it being so. Makes me feel it means something deep. lol
    Well Thunderbird was probably available and since nobody would come looking for John I guess Sinister found it convenient to harvest his genetic material.

    The gifted tv show had John with tracking abilities like his brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petrefax View Post
    Well Thunderbird was probably available and since nobody would come looking for John I guess Sinister found it convenient to harvest his genetic material.

    The gifted tv show had John with tracking abilities like his brother.
    You know, if we're presuming that the X0 stuff happened before all the original X-Men stories, then the scene with Sinister would have been before the All-New, All-Different era. Proudstar would have still been alive at the time. He'd already repurposed Proudstar's x-gene before Xavier and Magneto arrived, after all.

    Ah, I haven't watched the Gifted, so I was unaware. Wouldn't be shocked to see that carry over into the comics eventually.

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