Page 1 of 13 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 191
  1. #1
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    237

    Default Thoughts on RessurXion

    There are a number of things that trouble me about the X-Men's ability to resurrect themselves. So much so I think the topic merits its own thread. But, let me focus on the thing that confuses and alarms me the most.

    What Professor X via Cerebro implants into an embryo is a "copy" of that mutants consciousness, or animus as it is called in House of X #5. But, it is not the original. For example, the consciousness of the Cyclops who died on Sol's Hammer ended when Cyclops died. The consciousness of Cyclops #2 is not contiguous with the consciousness of Cyclops #1. So, what died on Sol's Hammer wasn't just a body but a unique consciousness as well. This was not a case of Cyclops' soul leaving his old body and migrating through space to possess a new one. So, the new Cyclops is a perfect copy of the old Cyclops, but he is not the original Cyclops. There was a unique being whose existence ended on Sol's Hammer.

    Here's what bothers me. The mutants seem oblivious to the fact that the Scott Summers they knew and loved is dead, or they just plain don't care as he has been replaced by a perfect copy of himself. People die and nobody cares. Does that freak anybody else out?

    Or, have I misunderstood what Hickman intended? Does the Cyclops clone actually contain the "soul" of the original Scott Summers? Am I making a big deal out of nothing?

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    10,690

    Default

    I also kinda feel like they're not reeeaally the originals? I think the word soul is used, but they seem to just be calling their mind backup that comes with their personality and memories as their soul, not the usual concept of soul...

    But honestly, it doesn't quite bother me in a way? Like, at the end it doesn't really mean much imo. They look the same, act the same, and remember everything from their previous life/lives. So it's essentially them. I think that's Hickman's POV too with the way he handled it.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelman View Post
    There are a number of things that trouble me about the X-Men's ability to resurrect themselves. So much so I think the topic merits its own thread. But, let me focus on the thing that confuses and alarms me the most.

    What Professor X via Cerebro implants into an embryo is a "copy" of that mutants consciousness, or animus as it is called in House of X #5. But, it is not the original. For example, the consciousness of the Cyclops who died on Sol's Hammer ended when Cyclops died. The consciousness of Cyclops #2 is not contiguous with the consciousness of Cyclops #1. So, what died on Sol's Hammer wasn't just a body but a unique consciousness as well. This was not a case of Cyclops' soul leaving his old body and migrating through space to possess a new one. So, the new Cyclops is a perfect copy of the old Cyclops, but he is not the original Cyclops. There was a unique being whose existence ended on Sol's Hammer.

    Here's what bothers me. The mutants seem oblivious to the fact that the Scott Summers they knew and loved is dead, or they just plain don't care as he has been replaced by a perfect copy of himself. People die and nobody cares. Does that freak anybody else out?

    Or, have I misunderstood what Hickman intended? Does the Cyclops clone actually contain the "soul" of the original Scott Summers? Am I making a big deal out of nothing?
    I think it is supposed to be unsettling, and whether readers believe the resurrected mutant is a clone or not will be debated for a long, long time until the story ends. In discussion with a friend of mine when the book came out, we bounced off ideas how we think this will end: with the "original" X-Men i.e. one-eyed Cyclops and crew waking up from whatever place they've been held and joining the fight against the Krakoans. Because, really, it is very easy to use the excuse that Xavier has been planting subliminal messages into everyone or even that Nu/Resurrected!Jean could have telepathically manipulated Storm into her subsequent declaration in HoX#5.

    Regardless, I'm all-for the current status quo because of all the stories it can tell, as well as the possibility of bringing back characters who were previously axed by plot-induced stupidity.
    Don't like? Don't read. Let your wallet talk.

    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

  4. #4
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    32

    Default

    I'm going to post my comment from the HoX #5 Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaja View Post
    I do not consider the beings born from Goldball eggs the 'real deal'. However, this does not mean that their lives have no value or that they are less than their peers not yet dead and resurrected.

    I see them as a backup file of a document that has been deleted. The original has been lost and is in the trash, but for all intents and purposes, the copy is still the same file.

  5. #5
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    97

    Default

    I think people are getting way ahead of themselves and I think it's pretty obvious Hickman is aware that he's doing some very risky things (hence the maybe 11th life being an out if reaction is negative to Dawn of X).

    To answer the question though, no, I do think they lose something each time. Those moments between when they die and when they are revived leaves a lot to be asked. Tome, they lose just enough of themselves where over time it could go wrong. They should've had a character whose power was to capture souls the minute they leave their host bodies to get around this (hey Sapna could've worked here haha). But I also think this can all be undone by next issue when it's revealed what Sinister truly did. Maybe the perfect clones turn into monsters? Mutants then destroy the world hence an 11th life being needed? Hickman has a lot of outs to undo anything he's doing if it doesnt work out right.

    Same thing with the 5. People are acting like it ruins death forever when I bet you those 5 are gonna go through Hell. One will get killed eventually and they'll get around that somehow and then unstable mostly villain Proteus will be used as an out to totally end that story (they already set up the maintenance he requires to remain sane with the clone Xaviers story).

  6. #6
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    I think people are getting way ahead of themselves and I think it's pretty obvious Hickman is aware that he's doing some very risky things (hence the maybe 11th life being an out if reaction is negative to Dawn of X).

    To answer the question though, no, I do think they lose something each time. Those moments between when they die and when they are revived leaves a lot to be asked. Tome, they lose just enough of themselves where over time it could go wrong. They should've had a character whose power was to capture souls the minute they leave their host bodies to get around this (hey Sapna could've worked here haha). But I also think this can all be undone by next issue when it's revealed what Sinister truly did. Maybe the perfect clones turn into monsters? Mutants then destroy the world hence an 11th life being needed? Hickman has a lot of outs to undo anything he's doing if it doesnt work out right.

    Same thing with the 5. People are acting like it ruins death forever when I bet you those 5 are gonna go through Hell. One will get killed eventually and they'll get around that somehow and then unstable mostly villain Proteus will be used as an out to totally end that story (they already set up the maintenance he requires to remain sane with the clone Xaviers story).
    What I would like to see going forward is to have at least one X-Man who takes a more skeptical view of Xavier and what he is doing. It sounds like a job for Kitty!

  7. #7
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    I think people are getting way ahead of themselves and I think it's pretty obvious Hickman is aware that he's doing some very risky things (hence the maybe 11th life being an out if reaction is negative to Dawn of X).

    To answer the question though, no, I do think they lose something each time. Those moments between when they die and when they are revived leaves a lot to be asked. Tome, they lose just enough of themselves where over time it could go wrong. They should've had a character whose power was to capture souls the minute they leave their host bodies to get around this (hey Sapna could've worked here haha). But I also think this can all be undone by next issue when it's revealed what Sinister truly did. Maybe the perfect clones turn into monsters? Mutants then destroy the world hence an 11th life being needed? Hickman has a lot of outs to undo anything he's doing if it doesnt work out right.

    Same thing with the 5. People are acting like it ruins death forever when I bet you those 5 are gonna go through Hell. One will get killed eventually and they'll get around that somehow and then unstable mostly villain Proteus will be used as an out to totally end that story (they already set up the maintenance he requires to remain sane with the clone Xaviers story).
    Indeed. I'm enjoying Elixir's return to prominence / fulfilling his potential, and tolerant of everyone else, but there's no way their stories are gonna end prettily.
    Don't like? Don't read. Let your wallet talk.

    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,246

    Default

    I've been comparing it to Loki's method of reincarnation. It's based around the idea that the personality is a copy, but as we see with Loki, that copy can and will be corrupted by simple circumstance and the different experience each individual faces. Plus, I can certainly see why Xavier and Magneto might want to avoid even considering souls, not just for practicality but because of the fact how many people would notice even faster. Magic users, demons, a host of people would notice if a bunch of souls just went back and forth.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    2,812

    Default

    So here is the important things

    1.Anima originated from Latin, and was originally used to describe ideas such as breath, soul, spirit or vital force

    2. Direct quote from the book The first thing was copying the mind "the essence" "The anima" of any mutant found ... So that one day he could put the soul back into it mutant shell

    3. Cyclops, Jean Grey, NightCrawler, Wolverine, etc have all come back from the dead. So if you accept them coming back as "originals" then you believe their essence can be put back in a body. Jean Grey and Psylocke have examples of them recreating their body psionically/telepathically what is are they now?

    Hickman is playing around a little with the concept of what is a soul imo. People have in their head your soul functionally is a ghost essence that leaves your that leaves your body when you die. Hickman, as I understand saying your soul, is your mind. If you believe in basically a spirit essence you might not think these are the original. If you believe the mind is your essence then this is the same person. I will put it like this Cyclops body was dying and he created a husk and transfer his mind through a machine. You would say that is the original cyclops. If Cyclops transfer his mind to a machine that could hold it and his body died, They create an exact copy of his mind and instead of using the original put the copy in his body and revived it. Is that Cyclops? All I can do is suggest watching Alter Carbon on Netflix that covers this concept in very interesting way.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-19-2019 at 10:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,246

    Default

    But we know that in Marvel, there is a real soul. And we're getting those words from Xavier and Magneto, two people I'm not sure we're supposed to trust.

  11. #11
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    727

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But we know that in Marvel, there is a real soul. And we're getting those words from Xavier and Magneto, two people I'm not sure we're supposed to trust.
    I dont see whats the big deal is, telepaths survive as disembodied soul-mind combo all the time, it is not that far fetched that they can sustain other non tp in this process as well
    It's funny because when I saw her behind on the glass at the end of the show, I thought, "That's where she needs to be. In captivity. Behind a glass in a lab somewhere that she can be studied like the psychotic specimen she is."

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,966

    Default

    I thought this was about the Color Coded Era

  13. #13
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    8,514

    Default

    Hickman: Cerebro's true purpose is putting the soul back into those shells, baby. It's time to boogie down!

    Also Hickman: they're just backups he refreshes every week lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    That's what I have over Beelzebub now, Honoka-chan. He thinks he's a third-year school idol. I know what I am. And in this fight-- that makes me INVINCIBLE!

  14. #14
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    842

    Default

    Think how many dozens of character resurrections there have been in the past whose explanations were waaaay flimsier than this, but we just rolled with them and accepted the characters as the real deal because the story treated them as such. Hickman gives us the most thorough, thought-of-everything explanation maybe in the history of superhero comics, and somehow that only draws attention to the nuts and bolts enough to make people question if those parts really make a whole. If it was just The Beyonder handwaving it and saying "they're alive again!" we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

    Anyway, here's my headcanon for how people attached to the soul as a literal and necessary thing in the Marvel Universe can roll with this story: you know that line from the first Thor movie about how Asgard is a place where science and magic are the same thing? I think that's a good way to look at a lot of things in the Marvel comics world, given that it encompasses so many varied types of fantasy. I think basically all the stuff that Cerebro records... that's what a soul is and always has been in the Marvel world. It can have supernatural manifestations, and supernatural beings have their supernatural ways of dealing with it, but Xavier has his scientific/biological way of dealing with it. It's why Vision can have a soul... it's not a thing that gets handed out from heaven (because like, which heaven? Marvel has countless spiritual realms!)... it's just the totality of a person's essence.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    6,405

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelman View Post
    Here's what bothers me. The mutants seem oblivious to the fact that the Scott Summers they knew and loved is dead, or they just plain don't care as he has been replaced by a perfect copy of himself. People die and nobody cares. Does that freak anybody else out?

    Or, have I misunderstood what Hickman intended? Does the Cyclops clone actually contain the "soul" of the original Scott Summers? Am I making a big deal out of nothing?
    From my experience, the rules depend on the specific story. I mean, when Spider-Man did the Clone Saga, Ben Reilly was just a normal clone but had all of Peter's memories and sense of continuity to the point that had Peter been killed during that first encounter and Ben not realized he was the clone, he could've just stepped into Peter's life and no one would've been the wiser. Conversely, X-23 was a normal clone, too (albeit with a modified genome), but was always her own person from day one, with no memories or anything inherited by Wolverine.

    So, I guess the question is if Hickman is intending this to be actually resurrection (soul given new body) or if it'll turn out to be something else?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •