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  1. #61
    Mighty Member WeaponX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    I would do it I mean i know it wouldn't technically be me but even if I didn't consider my copy to be me than I would consider them to be my child who has inherited my place in the world, my memories and personality plus losing a day's memory that is nothing major I mean I have no real memories of what I was doing one month ago beyond my general routine.
    So you would willingly kill your self so a copy of you could run around aging at a reduced rate? What if you had a wife and kids? Remember you are in no way ill or in need of this copy.

    Point is I think people are just being blasť when they say oh yeah it’s the original when if it happened to a family member like this and they told you hey we did this look their back 99% of people would say get that abomination away from me.

  2. #62
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    So it's a bit like the "Meths" in Altered Carbon where the back up stack is downloaded to a clone body.

  3. #63
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    So when you’re asked to send in an original signed copy of a document you just run three the copy machine and send the one it’s spits out because hey it’s no different?
    If your point is that a photocopy is literally different and distinguishable from an original signature, congratulations on the rhetoric I guess. You could pull out a dictionary definition of “copy” if you really want to approach this story in a fun, thoughtful way.

    But it’s a meaningless comparison without considering the completely different function of those things. Why would someone want an original signature vs. a photocopy? Because the obvious visual difference makes the former slightly stronger if scrutinized in a legal setting (though it could still be forged.) Why would someone want Cyclops’ memory/personality/soul in a new body? Because the old body died and they still want Cyclops around (or outside the text, because the writers want to tell Cyclops stories and we want to read them.) The resurrected Cyclops completely fulfills that function, and that in itself is a more compelling testament to how real he is than any part of the explanation of the process — I suspect that the only reason there’s a significant portion of people posting here who haven’t accepted these resurrections as real, is because we’re spending so much time thinking about it in this between-issues lurch before the story moves on and we’re just reading Scott and Jean and Monet like normal. A year or even a month from now I bet most people will have a hard time imagining this was such a big debate.

    Beyond the functional difference, there’s also the difference in their fundamental nature. I can’t believe I’m explaining the difference between a resurrected comic book character and a piece of paper, but. If someone receives a photocopied signature in the mail, it very likely will look enough like a photocopy that they can tell that it doesn’t meet their specific need for an original signature. What Hickman lays out in detail in this issue is more like the equivalent of a copy that is indistinguishable, or a copy that comes a detailed, verified video of the original being signed and then copied and mailed and arriving in their hands. That would be a lot more complicated, but more than satisfy the recipient’s needs. If the recipient still said “ah ah, but I requested an original” at that point, it would be just as rhetorically inane as some of the takes here, yet still speak to a deeply personal attachment to a specific, abstract idea of authenticity which I can’t hold against anyone — I just wish they would interrogate that in themselves and ask if it’s really relevant to this story.

    The range of how these characters are depicted is much, much more elastic than “A. Does it look like your signature and B. Does it look like it was drawn by a pen in a human hand.” Warren could show up with blue skin and metal wings and we would still accept that it’s him. Kurt could be depressed and bearded. If Cable went back in time and snatched Cyclops from a week before he died and brought him to the present, we would accept that it’s the real deal even if he lacks a week’s worth of the memories the other Scott had before he died. If I signed a document, dripped ketchup on it, and then signed a perfectly identical document in the exact same way and mailed that one, the recipient would never know or care about the first one I signed. If Captain America said “get me Wolverine!” and Logan showed up like “just so you know.... I burned up in the sun and then an exact copy of my mind from before the mission was transferred to a perfect recreation of my body” Cap would be like “sounds like a Tuesday for the X-Men” and then they’d go fight Hydra. Hopefully readers will be the same way once the story continues.

    Edit: WOW just admiring the massive wall of text I just wrote about how... *squints* these characters are different from a copied signature. ART

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    So you would willingly kill your self so a copy of you could run around aging at a reduced rate? What if you had a wife and kids? Remember you are in no way ill or in need of this copy.

    Point is I think people are just being blasť when they say oh yeah it’s the original when if it happened to a family member like this and they told you hey we did this look their back 99% of people would say get that abomination away from me.
    If that copy was made by a magic flame bird...or a priest that said a magic ritual, would you see that copy differently?

    Becuse some of these characters have had that done and we except it.
    In the real world i would be BOTH pro registration and Pro mutant rights. Xavier and Trask were both right.

  5. #65
    Mighty Member jpmst17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    No essentially itís a completely new person with the old ones memories implanted into them. Iíll ask this way if they offered you this process to get into a new body that will age super slow would you do it. Oh by the way weíll download your Brain Monday but make the switch that Wednesday.
    100% yes. a fresh new body. what's not to like

  6. #66
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raidensix View Post
    So it's a bit like the "Meths" in Altered Carbon where the back up stack is downloaded to a clone body.
    Hmmm, Interesting, I'm not familiar with it, but a quick google search later, I could appreciate taking things in that direction more...

    but why the damned balls and the 5, pfft, cheesy

  7. #67
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    So you would willingly kill your self so a copy of you could run around aging at a reduced rate? What if you had a wife and kids? Remember you are in no way ill or in need of this copy.

    Point is I think people are just being blasť when they say oh yeah it’s the original when if it happened to a family member like this and they told you hey we did this look their back 99% of people would say get that abomination away from me.
    Your first paragraph here is describing literally only things that don’t apply to this story...

    But to your second point, if a family member died and was brought back and the people who did it were as thorough in their explanation as Hickman was here, HELL NO I would not be like “get this abomination away from me.” I mean, I also don’t believe in souls in the spiritual sense. If you do, and that’s why you would think a loved one in this scenario is an abomination, that’s your thing but I would say it’s personal and not a flaw of the story that it can’t be reconciled with everyone’s exact spiritual beliefs or intuitions. That’s just part of a fictional universe where so many fantastical explanations for the nature of life coexist.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    So you would willingly kill your self so a copy of you could run around aging at a reduced rate? What if you had a wife and kids? Remember you are in no way ill or in need of this copy.

    Point is I think people are just being blasť when they say oh yeah it’s the original when if it happened to a family member like this and they told you hey we did this look their back 99% of people would say get that abomination away from me.
    I honestly don't know for sure if I could kill my self in that situation might need my copy to kill me assuming there were no legal difficulties from helping myself to commit suicide.

    If I had a wife and kids that I love that was dead set against it then yes might not do it in honor of their beliefs but that would be because I would lose the people I love by becoming a copy of myself.

    My personal beliefs are even if they are duplicates they are basically the people they are based on in the ways that matter to me other people might disagree but the mutants of Krokoa at least seem to have similar beliefs to me though that makes me think since magic in the marvel universe is according to Dr Doom telling a story to the world and making the world believe it does that mean they tell the story that the soul is transferred convincingly enough that it will become true?
    Last edited by Tasuxeda; 09-20-2019 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #69
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    I am having trouble seeing these are the originals. It's always going to be in the back of my mind. It doesn't help that we have clones like Laura and Evan who are treated as very different people from those they were cloned from.

    And I don't think Hickman expects us to just accept this as a normal case of resurrection. It's played up way too much.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    What’s being argued is a clone can’t have a soul transferred to it by downloading memories into it.
    Yeah, I'd agree with that, at least in ILR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I am having trouble seeing these are the originals. It's always going to be in the back of my mind. It doesn't help that we have clones like Laura and Evan who are treated as very different people from those they were cloned from.

    And I don't think Hickman expects us to just accept this as a normal case of resurrection. It's played up way too much.
    We'll have to see what Hickman does or doesn't do with the "resurrecting" thing. However, I think that authors do kinda invent their own rules even if the rules are an odd fit with other stories. Laura is a clone who was always her own person, but before that, you had characters like Ben Reilly, who were copies of the original all the way down. Same world, but different rules for clones, depending on the story. Ben was written for a story questioning identity, Laura was written for a story about a character trying to find their humanity over what they were brainwashed to be.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
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  11. #71
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    To the best of my knowledge, neither Evan nor Laura had a psychic imprint/Cerebro record uploaded into their consciousness a la Krakoa's resurrection protocol, which very specifically naturally rebirths the host body and copies over the identical consciousness. Evan and Laura's minds and personalities were developed and cultivated independently of the original mutant. In their cases, ultimately Apocalypse and Wolverine are the equivalent of genetic/DNA 'sperm donors.' The same holds for Gabby from Laura, et al.

    The same is, IMO, true of Madelyne Pryor, though she spent most of her life as an indirect puppet of Sinister. I feel Jean fans pushing for Madelyne to be re-classified as 'just a part of Jean' do so because they want to erase the stain of Scott leaving his wife and baby for his old girlfriend. YMMV.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    I guess to me this just sounds like someone saying hey I programmed a computer with all my memories and gave it a personality just like mine. As long as that computer still runs Iím immortal!! Meanwhile everyone else is thinking no a simulation of you is immortal youíre still gone once you die.

    To be clear Iím willing to except they are the originals because Hickman and marvel say so. Itís just that the logic doesnít fly.
    Except you are your memories and dna . You are here arguing that Spiritual or magical essence(what hickman is calling memories) that goes away when you die and can be put back in your body is the original you. But if your magical essence is multiplied and one of them put into a body it is not you anymore. You seem to think that the definition of "YOU" would stay the same in a world with all of these crazy things are happening. You forgot that they will people be just as freaked out by a person coming back from dead and will no longer consider "real" you around. Anyways when it is explained like magic people are comfortable with it. If I said a piece of your soul was put into an exact duplicate of your body and there was only one.You would be fine with that being called the original. When you explain it as "cold" science your body is a computer, Your mind is cpu and the essence of you is code. You get people freaking out. I don't have all the answers but the question of what is you but once your "biological original containment" is gone is going to be a thing.


    If you guys are interested in something that covers something like this then Alter Carbon by Richard K. Morgan( now on Netflix as a show) covers some of this stuff here is a synopsis

    In the twenty-fifth century, humankind has spread throughout the galaxy, monitored by the watchful eye of the U.N. While divisions in race, religion, and class still exist, advances in technology have redefined life itself. Now, assuming one can afford the expensive procedure, a personís consciousness can be stored in a cortical stack at the base of the brain and easily downloaded into a new body (or ďsleeveĒ) making death nothing more than a minor blip on a screen.
    In the novel's somewhat dystopian world, human personalities can be stored digitally and downloaded into new bodies, called sleeves. Most people have cortical stacks in their spinal columns that store their memories. If their body dies, their stack can be stored indefinitely. Catholics have arranged that they will not be resleeved as they believe that the soul goes to Heaven when they die, and so would not pass on to the new sleeve. This makes Catholics targets for murder, since killers know their victim will not be resleeved to testify. A UN resolution to alter this legal position forms one strand of the novel's plot, to allow the authorities to sleeve a deceased Catholic woman temporarily to testify in a murder trial.

    While most people can afford to get resleeved at the end of their lives, they are unable to update their bodies and most go through the full ageing process each time which discourages most from resleeving more than once or twice. So while normal people can live indefinitely in theory, most choose not to. Only the wealthy are able to acquire replacement bodies on a continual basis. The long-lived are called Meths, a reference to the Biblical figure Methuselah. The very rich are also able to keep copies of their minds in remote storage, which they update regularly. This ensures that even if their stack is destroyed, they can be resleeved.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, neither Evan nor Laura had a psychic imprint/Cerebro record uploaded into their consciousness a la Krakoa's resurrection protocol, which very specifically naturally rebirths the host body and copies over the identical consciousness. Evan and Laura's minds and personalities were developed and cultivated independently of the original mutant. In their cases, ultimately Apocalypse and Wolverine are the equivalent of genetic/DNA 'sperm donors.' The same holds for Gabby from Laura, et al.

    The same is, IMO, true of Madelyne Pryor, though she spent most of her life as an indirect puppet of Sinister. I feel Jean fans pushing for Madelyne to be re-classified as 'just a part of Jean' do so because they want to erase the stain of Scott leaving his wife and baby for his old girlfriend. YMMV.
    But again, we're ignoring that no soul was really "split" between the "originals" and their clones.

    And even with Ben Reiley, he is, again, treated as his own person.

    And again, we know that souls exist in the MU. That isn't a question.

    And frankly, taking souls out of the process isn't a bad idea from a practical point of view. Souls are tricky and they can be damaged or you could bring something else back when you use them.

    There's also the very real fact that using these back-up copies give Xavier even more control of the process. He can change things about the person if h wants.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Has anyone else seen the indie sci-fi movie Primer? It is touches on this subject and becomes truly grotesque... GREAT film
    GrindrStone(D)

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, neither Evan nor Laura had a psychic imprint/Cerebro record uploaded into their consciousness a la Krakoa's resurrection protocol, which very specifically naturally rebirths the host body and copies over the identical consciousness. Evan and Laura's minds and personalities were developed and cultivated independently of the original mutant. In their cases, ultimately Apocalypse and Wolverine are the equivalent of genetic/DNA 'sperm donors.' The same holds for Gabby from Laura, et al.

    The same is, IMO, true of Madelyne Pryor, though she spent most of her life as an indirect puppet of Sinister. I feel Jean fans pushing for Madelyne to be re-classified as 'just a part of Jean' do so because they want to erase the stain of Scott leaving his wife and baby for his old girlfriend. YMMV.
    Has there been an explanation why? (Just curious.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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